FOOTBALL POLITICS....and City

[john68]

Coca,

Sorry mate but I forgot to mention an excellent site which is a source of some great football writingby some top quality football writers.

"Inside Football"

You will find the author of tha above piece in there and I would certainly recommend readingstuff by "MIHIR BOSE" particularly the recent piece entitled "Why The Champions League Is Glorious But UeFA's Powers Are Limited"

...if I can fuck up a vacation on my way...my life has not been in vain....:-)

[Im_Spartacus]

Coca, Sorry mate but I forgot to mention an excellent site which is a source of some great football writingby some top quality football writers. "Inside Football" You will find the author of tha above piece in there and I would certainly recommend readingstuff by "MIHIR BOSE" particularly the recent piece entitled "Why The Champions League Is Glorious But UeFA's Powers Are Limited" ...if I can fuck up a vacation on my way...my life has not been in vain....:-)

Good thread and perfect timing just as the site was starting to encourage me towards a aummer break!

I've always found Mihir Bose's books to be very much stating the obvious, with little real insight other than what he is 'fed' by the odd source. His book about the history of the premier league was really superficial and completely ignored the machinations of the soon to be 'sky 4' and seemed to simply restate facts as reported at the time rather than offering real opinion or analysis of what was actually going on. I'll look up the article you mentioned, perhaps his articles give more opinion than his books

[john68]

Sparty,

The difficulty of Bose and all journos who would seek to cover this stuff is the paucity of info leaking out. We only learned about the G14's "Vision Europe"because of a leak and it was only the loose mouths of the Gala and Juve bosses at a closed, by invitation only conference that gave us an insight on just how far the planning for the a Super League in 2018 had got.

The bigger problem is that the mainstream and sports mainstream publications and media refuse to report on this. Maybe some because of the vested interests of their owners and some afraid of possible legal implications. It doesn't leave the likes of Bose or anyone else with a lot to go at.

During my long hours of trawling through various stuff, I have found it difficult to find new stuff. Mainly bigger and better explanations or a more full picture of what I have already read previously.

I found Bose and some of his colleagues useful as starting points, from which I could try and go deeper.

Sadly, too few are bringing this shit to the wider more popularly read public domains.

[Beefymcfc]

There's another part to this and that's the fans. As mentioned, there's little or no real mention of what the reality is because us as fans don't want to believe that these things are happening. Most fans just want to go and see their team play in an honest and sporting occassion; nobody really wants to know about politics unless it affects their team.

[Hazy2]

The start of the Premier League was the start of the campaign to stop people playing when they should be paying! Sky and the Premier League have killed Grass roots football for adults first with precision timing of games. The last 2 Goverments have been in bed Murdock. Kids, were next and do not play sport in anywhere the same numbers, due to a lot of factors one being the parents want to be home making the most of the £90.00 a month subscription, Games like Fulham away for us are 1.15 on a Sat or 4 pm on a Sunday afternoon, plus Tues Wed nights Chumps League, Kids can watch a game anywhere on every gadget they have. ARMCHAIR FANS are SKY'S priority.

[ruralblue]

John68! He disappears then pops up with cracking threads! He his the invisible man!

Of course being a Yorkshire thicket I only understood the words... and, this, now and cheers!

[Pretty Boy Lee]

A breakaway league may take a big part of my love for the sport away.

We either go and lose out soul and my heart breaks in two.

Or we don't and are in a perceived 2nd rate league from there on out.

I obviously hope it never happens.

[frankswift]

John68! He disappears then pops up with cracking threads! He is the invisible man!

He might not wear pants, but he's really here.

Great work, John. Thanks.

[john68]

Cheers Rural, In truth Mate "I'm not really here"...(Hoping for a trip to Wycoller this weekend, if I can convince the wonderful Kath that it's better experienced on foot rather than the car window).

Beefers,
Quite simply, FANS are not part of the equation of the chinless wonder who are the brains behind all of this. When we say this or that club is doing this or that, it is really those clubs following the marketing and financial strategies as thought up and laid down by those marketeers and financiers. Their skills are transferable throughout commerce, industry, sport and financial institutions and they operate in a world where the word FAN was replaced a long time ago by "Customer".

At City,we are luckier than most because our owners aims are more aligned with profile than pure profit, so our aims are similar and we get considered more. That is the case now, but may not always be the case.

I agree that many fans have no interest whatsoever in any of this.

[john68]

Lee,

Despite how you and others may feel about the possibility of a Super League, you will hardly notice the difference mate. As Beefers said, most fans just wantto experience the game, see their team compete and possibly win, have a few beers. and go home.

This shit has all happened before Mate. Remember that the Premier League is in reality a breakaway, independently owned business/league. It simply chose not to be regulated by the Football League and it's worth remembering that they invited the FA in but weren't forced to.

My personal view is that any future European Super League, which from the present evidence, I think will become reality, will probably be a similar model. A privately owned, by invitation only competition, designed and set up by the elite clubs, to all intents and purposes run and regulated by UeFA.

Just as an extra chuck in, I think Ted has it right when he says it is about money and solely about money and if it benefits them to discard clubs and invite other clubs into their fold, they will do so.

The upshot is...like happened with the Premier League, the marketing and hype will sell it globally into new markets and the global public will gobble it all up and celebrate. Never forget that McDonalds has got the gullible World eating cardboard and "Lovin it"

[Twobob]

Hi John, excellent thread and great to see you back posting!

I agree with Beefy that the holy grail of the CL has left me with a bad taste in my mouth after 3 seasons, it's so blatently geared to a subset 'family' of corporations operating as football clubs. It feels like we've stormed into masonic lodge and we are certainly not welcome. I seriously cannot stomach it anymore.

There is certainly a fear that our business model in totally contradictory to theirs, this was a great comment by yourself:

At City,we are luckier than most because our owners aims are more aligned with profile than pure profit, so our aims are similar and we get considered more. That is the case now, but may not always be the case

It feels that we are too maveric at present for them to ever accept us into thier collective. While at present they are controling the spread of wealth between themselves, the head members control the other members with finance and gain - for us that wouldnt work and it isn't that other members would be concerned but those at the head table could see themselves being replaced and they would never allow that.

Although the English market is a fairly large one, the driver here for a closed European League must be to tap further into the world market without interruption from domestic 'politics' (Leagues) - the countries with strong leagues would weaken to a sense (if teams pulled out domestically) but those countries with weaker teams the fan bases would activily lap this kind of league up.

So if a ESL was created would domestic teams (eg Rags/Chels/Arse/Scouse) be able to pull out of the Prem League?

[Beefymcfc]

Quite simply, FANS are not part of the equation of the chinless wonder who are the brains behind all of this. When we say this or that club is doing this or that, it is really those clubs following the marketing and financial strategies as thought up and laid down by those marketeers and financiers. Their skills are transferable throughout commerce, industry, sport and financial institutions and they operate in a world where the word FAN was replaced a long time ago by "Customer".

At City,we are luckier than most because our owners aims are more aligned with profile than pure profit, so our aims are similar and we get considered more. That is the case now, but may not always be the case.

I agree that many fans have no interest whatsoever in any of this.

Aye mate, it was just an observation. Whatever happens, wherever they go with this, the fans will always be there. The difference is, it won't be those same fans that have followed them through thick and thin.

I love these threads btw, real talk about real things. One thing I'd ask is what are your thoughts on the timing of Gill going to UEFA?

[Cocacolajojo1]

Aye mate, it was just an observation. Whatever happens, wherever they go with this, the fans will always be there. The difference is, it won't be those same fans that have followed them through thick and thin.

I seriously don't think they want these type of fans anymore, the thick and thin fans I mean. I think big clubs want to bask in the glory of having hardcore fans, portraying a close relationship with these type of fans as a way of keeping it real, so to speak, but I don't think they're that interested in them. Partly because these fans (I think) are not the wealthiest of fans, at least not as wealthy as the type of fans these clubs would like to acquire, and I would also guess that this fan group contains the violent portion of the football audience. Lastly, these are the types of fans that will say things like "it's our, the fans', club, not yours" and any big club would probably want to sever relations to these type of fans or at least shut them out, so as to minimize fan influence in the running of the club.

That's how I see it. I think wealth lies at the heart of the issue but I also think the clubs view a potential league like an american franchise-based one as a way of finally making sure who controls the clubs. Italy Sweden and other countries with rampant firms or ultras connected to mobs and such, serve as the archetype of what they, G14, don't want.

Edit

I think they want the supporter clubs though. These would suit the owners just fine, as they rarely make any mischief and mostly cater to non-ultra supporters, or rather, they're too few to make any kind of splash in such a supporter organization.

[john68]

Hi 2Bob and thanks mate...appreciated.

The mindset was changed in the late 1980s when instead of having a commercial side to facilitate the playing of football, a group of clubs turned the whole philosophy on its head and realised that they could play football in order to make money.

That change became a magnet for money grabbing investors from all over the World. In England, with the double whammy of the Premier League's financial structure, the like of the Glazers, Hicks and Gillette, the Fenway Group and the silent owner odf Arsenal dived in. It was the structure of the Premier League that gave the European clubs a model to study and the rest of the story grew from there.

The more I read and dig, the more I am convinced that most of this opposition is English based. It isn't a coincidence that of the present 9 powerful clubs, 4 of them are English (Rgs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea). The Galatasary boss was quite clear when he mentioned local politics as a factor.

I think the majority of European based clubs would be quite happy to see us inside rather than outside and it is only those English clubs who have most to fear who want us outside.

It is English fear based, we have greater resources than them and we are a threat that sits firmly inside their backyard. We threaten their domestic hegemony and their domestic markets. In financial terms, we have moved ahead of Chelsea Arsenal and Liverpool and sit 2nd domestically behind the rags.

The domestic market was simple until we came along. the rags, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool (when they got their act together had it nicely carved up. Now the rags have failed to qualify, Arsenal have been shaken out of their "no spend but still get their 4th spot and remain in pot 1" strategy and are being forced to dip into their profits to stay competitive, Chelsea are being forced to spend to keep pace and Liverpool are seeking any way to curb us so they can get back in contention. ENGLISH BASED FEAR.

Whether they remain in their domestic leagues is a battle still to be fought when the time comes. In the past, UeFA was quite clear with a statement in their own published version of "Vision Europe". UeFA stated that clubs that broke away would also leave their domestic Leagues.

Since the legal implications of the Charleroi case (2006), UeFA now don't seem to have that power to ban and any decision would fall back on the National Association. It would also depend on whether any teams breaking away wished to remain in domestic competition.

A thought that has just come to me as I type this (so is complete speculation) is whether the recent statement by Greg Dyke about "B" teams has any relevance or significance. An English club with an A team in Europe and a B team in the Prem. I am sure the Premier League would wish to keep what it would consider its financial jewels. Just a thought.

[john68]

It is also worth looking at the mentality of the 5 (of the 9) clubs outside England, They see the financial rise of the Premier League with jealousy. It is a great source of wealth to them because it is such a globally rich league and a market that is closed to them.

City, Chelsea, Liverpool, the rags, Arsenal, with the likes of Spurs and Everton chasing behind, compared to their comparatively non competitive leagues with only a few really big games for them to market. Bayern have no really serious rival. Until Atletico this season, it was only ever really Barca or Real and in Italy Milan, Inter and Juve usually have it their own way.

They see a super league (UeFA controlled or independent) as the answer to their financial prayers. A big game every week.

[john68]

Gald you're enjoying it Beefers Mate....:-)

Again only supposition and speculation Pal but I don't think these guys do anything by accident or coincidence. Not only has Gill moved into a prominent UeFA position but Maurice Watkins (long time rags lawyer) also moved into the FA and Ivan Gadzidis (Arsenal) has the chair of the UeFA Legal Committee....and dare we forget the rag Greg Dyke, esconced on his throne at the FA? It was he that whinced at the possibility of City winning the league and didn't Scudamore (Premier league boss) suggest the failure of the rags hurt the Premier League's global marketing?

There are 3 major players in this battle for power. the clubs, the FA and UeFA....strategically, to have power and presence in all of these camps is an excellent move.

There is another faction, the ECA which I have looked at but not studied as deeply as the others...Note to self to do so.

[Peter Doherty (AGAIG)]

Gald you're enjoying it Beefers Mate....:-)

Again only supposition and speculation Pal but I don't think these guys do anything by accident or coincidence. Not only has Gill moved into a prominent UeFA position but Maurice Watkins (long time rags lawyer) also moved into the FA and Ivan Gadzidis (Arsenal) has the chair of the UeFA Legal Committee....and dare we forget the rag Greg Dyke, esconced on his throne at the FA? It was he that whinced at the possibility of City winning the league and didn't Scudamore (Premier league boss) suggest the failure of the rags hurt the Premier League's global marketing?

There are 3 major players in this battle for power. the clubs, the FA and UeFA....strategically, to have power and presence in all of these camps is an excellent move.

There is another faction, the ECA which I have looked at but not studied as deeply as the others...Note to self to do so.

Scudamore said that in response to a question, to which he added that the sanctity of the competitiveness of the Premier League was paramount. Scudamore is actually against FFP.
On the other hand, the incompetent CEO of the rags (Edward Woodward), after less than a year in football, has found his way to becoming the Chairman of the ECA Marketing & Communications Working Group. http://www.ecaeurope.com/news/fc-barcel ... ive-board/

[john68]

Thanks for that correction and update Peter.

It seems the rags are well politically and strategically positioned in all the major players.

I haven't really had chance to go into depth with the ECA.

[london blue 2]

John, always respect your views. But with this kinda knowledge and outlook I find it hard to understand how you still bother with football at all.

Reading this thread makes one feel like a kid who's just found out Santa isn't real.

[Beefymcfc]

Haven't Barca, after being found guilty of tax evasion etc, had their chairman voted to one of the top UEFA positions, and Bayern?