If Hiddink was in charge....

[Blue Since 76]

for the Mancini, Mourinho gang:
their accomplishment is that they took successful well financed siides and won something with them. I.e they had them perform to their potential.
They didn't achieve anything that hadn't previously been achieved by their teams did they?
Mourinhio took Chelsea up one place in the league in his first season and won the same number of trophies as Gianluca Vialli in his first two years.
How is that better than having a less well funded more ordinary side perform beyond reasonable expectations?

Point being Alex that they have both shown that they can successfully run the team at a big well financed club. As has Rijkaard. Exactly what we need in that regard. The question then is do we want negative football and me-me-me-ness from Mourinho or attack minded exciting football that Rijkaard and Mancini are known for - football of the kind Hughes wants to play but just doesn't have in him I'm afraid.

I'd love a coach to be here and successful for 10+ years, but in European football, they are few and far between. Eventually we may get one, but I'd settle for changing one successful coach for another every few years.

I wouldn't really want Mourinho due to the style of football he plays, which was partly why he was ousted at Chelsea. I'm not totally convinced Rijkaard would be the answer either, as Barca looked immediately better once he left and someone with no experience took over. Haven't seen enough Italian football over the last few years to comment on Mancini.

And that's the downside of sacking Hughes - would the next person be better or would we just end up starting again? Although on the grounds he was tactically out done by Phil Brown on Saturday, I suspect Frank Clark could do a better job.

[Blue2]

i think a major problem that keeps clubs down these days isnot giving the manager enough time we need to give him till atleast the end of NEXT season, big clubs have stable managers and after hes been in the job a few years bigger players will respect him more aswell and so will other managers if we got hiddink in in january it would also takehim a while to gain the respect of the big clubs/players and you cant win things without your team respecting you because otherwise everybody will just question everything you do and then nothing will ever get done the way you want and anyone who was chanting munich can fuck off and die no one says it to tevez do they wankers

Are you for real?, so he doesn't already have respect in the football world and Chelsea , if I remember rightly, won the FA cup last season with him only being there 6 months!

[Socrates]

Back to the OP....

Question: is Hiddink an upgrade on what we have? Yes.

Regardless of what leagues he managed in, Hiddink has been more successful than Hughes in his managerial career. It's simply a fact. I can't understand how people are debating that point.

Other "upgrades " would include Scolari, Ramos, SGE. The list is a long one if your criterion is that they won trophies. the debate is because the circumstances of winning them are relevent.

Yes, while there are obviously better choices than those, all three of them would actually be upgrades on Hughes based on what we have seen so far! Ramos in particular is given very unfair treatment based on a few short months at Spurs. People forget that he came into a nasty situation. Spurs had already collapsed after the bust up between the director of football and Jol. Ramos didn't have time to do anything. Other than actually win a trophy that is! Who knows what he could do with a proper chance. But besides that he only won some tinput cups in some backwater called Spain and the UEFA Cup so we have to put that into context...

Your argument basically seems to be that nobody has done this exact same huge size project before so we might as well stick with someone who has never managed a big club before at all in the hope he will miraculously turn out to be the next Baconface. Surely this job, with this budget, would be a step up for most managers that have managed top clubs before. To expect someone to step up from managing the cloggers at Blackburn to build a world class size is in fact, thinking about it, bordering on insanity!

[CityFanFromRome]

i think a major problem that keeps clubs down these days isnot giving the manager enough time we need to give him till atleast the end of NEXT season, big clubs have stable managers and after hes been in the job a few years bigger players will respect him more aswell and so will other managers if we got hiddink in in january it would also takehim a while to gain the respect of the big clubs/players and you cant win things without your team respecting you because otherwise everybody will just question everything you do and then nothing will ever get done the way you want and anyone who was chanting munich can fuck off and die no one says it to tevez do they wankers

You seriously want another season and a half under Hughes even performing like this? Also, Hiddink came into Chelsea last year and managed to make them perform immediately, let's not forget how close they went to eliminate Barca in the CL and get to the final, and he won the FA Cup for them.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Back to the OP....

Question: is Hiddink an upgrade on what we have? Yes.

Regardless of what leagues he managed in, Hiddink has been more successful than Hughes in his managerial career. It's simply a fact. I can't understand how people are debating that point.

Other "upgrades " would include Scolari, Ramos, SGE. The list is a long one if your criterion is that they won trophies. the debate is because the circumstances of winning them are relevent.

well I consider Sven to be better manager anyway.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

The formation and tactics are wrong. Hughes almost had the formation and pattern of play right last season. Now he's reverted to midtable Blackburn Rovers football.

Thats the problem.

If he can sort this out asap then we will be fine. But the fact that its gone on for weeks now and he hasnt changed it is what worries me. We can see theres something wrong, yet he can't.

that's more or less the way I feel about current situation.

We will see whether Hughes just wanted to see what he can do with this formation and style of play and will now go to more productive system. If he does that could save him.

What worries me is that he is a stubborn person who always seems to be looking to prove people wrong and changing things around would mean that he would have to admit to himself that he was wrong. It's called learning curve. We'll see whether he is willing to do that but I'm worried. You need different sort of approach with the players we have got to what Hughes is to working with. Riding Ferrari is different to riding Fiat despite the basics being the same.

[Alex Sapphire]

The formation and tactics are wrong. Hughes almost had the formation and pattern of play right last season. Now he's reverted to midtable Blackburn Rovers football.

Thats the problem.

If he can sort this out asap then we will be fine. But the fact that its gone on for weeks now and he hasnt changed it is what worries me. We can see theres something wrong, yet he can't.

that's more or less the way I feel about current situation.

We will see whether Hughes just wanted to see what he can do with this formation and style of play and will now go to more productive system. If he does that could save him.

What worries me is that he is a stubborn person who always seems to be looking to prove people wrong and changing things around would mean that he would have to admit to himself that he was wrong. It's called learning curve. We'll see whether he is willing to do that but I'm worried. You need different sort of approach with the players we have got to what Hughes is to working with. Riding Ferrari is different to riding Fiat despite the basics being the same.

so which formation is it that's wrong and Blackburn-like.
Is it the 2 DMs that he's played quite a lot while he's had players out,
the barry/Ireland axis that he started the season successfully with
or Saturday's selection of de Jong as the only DM with Ireland, SWP, Binho, Tevez all with attacking intent.
This is what he "reverted" to and I thought even the doubters believed that starting eleven was the best available

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

The formation and tactics are wrong. Hughes almost had the formation and pattern of play right last season. Now he's reverted to midtable Blackburn Rovers football.

Thats the problem.

If he can sort this out asap then we will be fine. But the fact that its gone on for weeks now and he hasnt changed it is what worries me. We can see theres something wrong, yet he can't.

that's more or less the way I feel about current situation.

We will see whether Hughes just wanted to see what he can do with this formation and style of play and will now go to more productive system. If he does that could save him.

What worries me is that he is a stubborn person who always seems to be looking to prove people wrong and changing things around would mean that he would have to admit to himself that he was wrong. It's called learning curve. We'll see whether he is willing to do that but I'm worried. You need different sort of approach with the players we have got to what Hughes is to working with. Riding Ferrari is different to riding Fiat despite the basics being the same.

so which formation is it that's wrong and Blackburn-like.
Is it the 2 DMs that he's played quite a lot while he's had players out,
the barry/Ireland axis that he started the season successfully with
or Saturday's selection of de Jong as the only DM with Ireland, SWP, Binho, Tevez all with attacking intent.
This is what he "reverted" to and I thought even the doubters believed that starting eleven was the best available

I had no complaints with the formation as such on saturday, although for months that has been the problem as well, but that players still don't click with each other and our range of passing for example is very one dimensional.

I'm not going to argue about this with you though. It has been obvious for a good while that you think Hughes is the man to take us forward. I don't. I feel someone experienced and who has winning mentality would be the best option for us right now. Once we've taken that first step of actually winning something and seriously challenging the big boys, we can look at other options. Right now we need to kick start "the project" on the pitch.

I am however curious to hear that what Hughes as a manager has done to convince you of his abilities to extent that you'd be willing to argue that world class managers like Hiddink, Mourinho etc would be better options?

[Hazy]

Stuborn manager, a label for Fergie, Benitez and Wenger, most managers are stubborn, Fans are stubborn and misguided I include myself. Regreting what you wish for might not apply with the removal of Hughes, who again cannot win no matter what in some fans minds he has to go he is a rag. ! A change in City fans, since the take over NO SENSE OF REALITY, AMAZING AFTER 30 YRS OF NOTHING,the slating of players like Micah, SWP, Lescot getting stick well beyond common sense for a player who has played what a dozen games. The same loons win Wed and the Semi final and the fans are dancing in the street some saying fucking rag agai and again !, maybe it is just a getting used to expectations, which is removing any support for the team, The silence at COMS is by far the worst of all Prem grounds, Out noised by 1500 Hull fans in a crowsd of 46,000 a lack of support for players who are not playing like world beaters, that is a choice thing you can support or slag,I cannot wait for games to come around 3 in a week and a chance of a semi-final, when do fans put the club first and support, I use my next dorr neighbours plight SCFC, NO MONEY 25% FANS GO HOME AND AWAY NO MATTER WHAT, HAVE WE FORGOT THEY WERE A DERBY NOT SO LONG AGO, EXPECTATIONS AND PEOPLES OWN MINDLESS OPINIONS HELP NOBODY BUT THOSE WHO THINK THEY KNOW BETTER ! WHAT IS WRONG WITH SUPPORTING CITY NO MATTER FUCKING WHAT !

[john@staustell]

Right NQDP. We are failing to score because the players are not clicking in the final third, at all. Cause for great concern. They seem lost against 'lesser opposition', so we'll see how or if it works against Arsenal and Chelsea this week.

[irblinx]

I think it's safe to say that the manner of performances rather than the fact that they were draws is the issue that has turned so many against him. Tacticly we have been poor, the back four haven't yet gelled (not helped by playing a woefully out of form Micah) meaning giving away countless stupid goals and lots of players have been under performing.

In fact that is my biggest concern with Hughes and his band of merry taffys, there is only one player that has improved since their arrival at the club, Bridge, the one exception last season was Stevie and so far this season we've only seen glimpses of him. In fact we only have one consistent performer and that's Nige, even Given has had shaky moments in the last few games. Whether it is through coaching or just a lack of confidence we do seem to have a lot of players whose level of performance has dropped alarmingly since they first pulled on the blue shirt: Barry, SWP, Ade, Tevez, Toure, Micah, Bellamy (to a lesser extent but has been anonymous over the last month).

Back to the OP, would Hiddink have gotten the same abuse if we had shown the same form under him? That's a stupid question IMHO, the question that we, and the Sheikh, should be asking is would we have had this run of form under Hiddink, if the answer is yes then let Hughes carry on building if not then it's time that he either proved himself worthy of the job or was relieved of it.

I do still think of Hughes as an ex red (I didn't ask for a photo of myself with him at the AD BBQ for precisely that reason, petty maybe but that is how I feel about it) but as long as he does right by City he would always have my 100% backing, at the moment I still need convincing. Having said that his ex club really has nothing to do with our recent performances and therefore I would never even think about shouting about them

[Alex Sapphire]

I had no complaints with the formation as such on saturday, although for months that has been the problem as well, but that players still don't click with each other and our range of passing for example is very one dimensional.

We're agreed about the formation. The passing and movement in the last third on saturday was some of the very best I've seen at a City ground from any team. That there was no end product was disappointing and meant that a game we dominated was never secure. I trust the coaches are encouraging the front players to "have a go" next time rather than try to construct "goal of the month" every time we have the ball. If you think the players aren't clicking, maybe that reflects the newness of the team and their lack of familiarity (Binho spent the game telling the others what to do even though he was the one who slotted in. maybe the strength of his personality on the pitch disrupted the understanding that has been growing between Ireland Tevez and SWP

I'm not going to argue about this with you though. It has been obvious for a good while that you think Hughes is the man to take us forward.

I'm happy for you to decide what we do and don't discuss if it makes things easier. And thanks for telling me what I think ;-). In fact what I know is that Hughes is the man in possession. What I think is that nothing has happened to justify sacking him or him resigning.

I don't. I feel someone experienced and who has winning mentality would be the best option for us right now. Once we've taken that first step of actually winning something and seriously challenging the big boys, we can look at other options. Right now we need to kick start "the project" on the pitch.

I know this is how you and many others feel. I also recall that most said we should wait until Christmas and see if we were on course for the Club's stated target of 6th. The doubters qualified that by insisting we should be higher than 6th rather than climbing towards it. I agreed then and I agree now. It's not Christmas just yet, so what we are seeing is that many are dissapointed with the football and results. The "project" is strategic, long term. these issues are tactical, short term, so I hope will not be a distraction to the club as much as they clearly are oin here.

I am however curious to hear that what Hughes as a manager has done to convince you of his abilities to extent that you'd be willing to argue that world class managers like Hiddink, Mourinho etc would be better options?

I think the issue here is whether we want to just buy success in undignified haste(the Al Fahim model) or build it with strong long term planning supported by an investment programme and building a sustainable model. You can be proud of something you build. You should have a little bit of shame if all you do is buy success (like the rags)

If you want it overnight then arguably we'd chase Rooney instead of Tevez. Ditch SWP for Tranaldo. Appoint Kenyon instead of Cookie. Bring in Ferdinand to strengthen the back line. Why omit the world's most successful manager from your list?
It's not about whether we have the best in the world in every role in the club, it's about whether we have the quality potential professionalism and plan to be the best in the world together.

What has Hughes done as a manager to show me he has the potential?

Well he's bought mostly wisely simultaneously weakening our main rivals. Focused on Prem experience
He's learned from the mistakes of "better managers" that a world class player may not automatically succeed in the prem
He's not thrown away the baby with the bathwater (Micah, SWP, Ireland starting on Saturday) 3 more on the bench
he's made brave decisions for the team, getting shut of trouble causers no matter how talented
he's erasing the legacy of "hard working triers who lose" (I loved Dunney but understand how his history could be inconsistent with our future)
He's addressed the squads weaknesses (whole new forward line, new CD)
he hasnt dropped three points against any of the second tier in the prem who have always been a threat to us
He is on target for a top six finish (we all want better) and a cup run

[lets all have a disco]

Back to the OP....

Question: is Hiddink an upgrade on what we have? Yes.

Regardless of what leagues he managed in, Hiddink has been more successful than Hughes in his managerial career. It's simply a fact. I can't understand how people are debating that point.

Other "upgrades " would include Scolari, Ramos, SGE. The list is a long one if your criterion is that they won trophies. the debate is because the circumstances of winning them are relevent.

well I consider Sven to be better manager anyway.

But Sven isnt as good as Jose,Pep,Redknapp,Benitez,Taggart,Wenger,Ancelotti etc etc etc.

[Vhero]

Back to the OP....

Question: is Hiddink an upgrade on what we have? Yes.

Regardless of what leagues he managed in, Hiddink has been more successful than Hughes in his managerial career. It's simply a fact. I can't understand how people are debating that point.

Other "upgrades " would include Scolari, Ramos, SGE. The list is a long one if your criterion is that they won trophies. the debate is because the circumstances of winning them are relevent.

well I consider Sven to be better manager anyway.

But Sven isnt as good as Jose,Pep,Redknapp,Benitez,Taggart,Wenger,Ancelotti etc etc etc.

Agreed except for maybe Benitez I think the old geezers finally lost it with the scouse red sure he's not had a lot of money but hes made some fucking terrible buys. A lot of people on here who are saying Hughes needs time said Sven needed to go Ironic or what? People use what happened near the end of the season as an excuse but to be fair we don't know what happened behind the scenes and there was obviously something.. Crap i'm getting off topic again..

[OliverHardy]

...and we were in our current run of form, would the people currently calling for the managers head call for Hiddink's head too? I seriousy doubt it

Am just really interested in finding out the reasoning behind the abuse hurled towards the current manager at the end of the Hull game (along with the online insults that have followed). The reason I ask is that the "dirty rag/munich" insuts seem to die out when we play well, but be the first thing to be called upon when we don't.

Is it because you are gutted the team is not playing well, or kind of happy that it gives you an excuse to get rid of Hughes?

I heard an opposing player who in the scheme of things didnt bring great things to our club (Giovanni) receive more applause on saturday than our manager EVER has. What does this say about us city fans? We seem to have a real identity and priorites problem.

Your judgement of seriously doubting that Hiddink would get called shows how flawed your thinking can be in supporting the clueless one.

your screen name already answered the question for you

[Rag_hater]

...and we were in our current run of form, would the people currently calling for the managers head call for Hiddink's head too? I seriousy doubt it

Am just really interested in finding out the reasoning behind the abuse hurled towards the current manager at the end of the Hull game (along with the online insults that have followed). The reason I ask is that the "dirty rag/munich" insuts seem to die out when we play well, but be the first thing to be called upon when we don't.

Is it because you are gutted the team is not playing well, or kind of happy that it gives you an excuse to get rid of Hughes?

I heard an opposing player who in the scheme of things didnt bring great things to our club (Giovanni) receive more applause on saturday than our manager EVER has. What does this say about us city fans? We seem to have a real identity and priorites problem.

Your judgement of seriously doubting that Hiddink would get called shows how flawed your thinking can be in supporting the clueless one.

your screen name already answered the question for you

I'll take that to be an assumption by you.
However I didn't like the appointment of the clueless one from the very begining and the platitudes he came out with during his spending spree in the summer did nothing to convince me.
I wasn't one of the people who was wanking over the good start to the season we had and therefore I dont think I am being hypocritical by saying that I still think the clueless one is wank. I've said if Hiddink served up the same shit as clueless he would get the same sort of opinions voiced by me.
So your assuption that my vitrole is reserved for clueless because of his rag past is way of the mark and just an excuse to support him.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Back to the OP....

Question: is Hiddink an upgrade on what we have? Yes.

Regardless of what leagues he managed in, Hiddink has been more successful than Hughes in his managerial career. It's simply a fact. I can't understand how people are debating that point.

Other "upgrades " would include Scolari, Ramos, SGE. The list is a long one if your criterion is that they won trophies. the debate is because the circumstances of winning them are relevent.

well I consider Sven to be better manager anyway.

But Sven isnt as good as Jose,Pep,Redknapp,Benitez,Taggart,Wenger,Ancelotti etc etc etc.

Better than Redknapp but other managers on your list are probably better than Sven, I agree.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

I had no complaints with the formation as such on saturday, although for months that has been the problem as well, but that players still don't click with each other and our range of passing for example is very one dimensional.

We're agreed about the formation. The passing and movement in the last third on saturday was some of the very best I've seen at a City ground from any team. That there was no end product was disappointing and meant that a game we dominated was never secure. I trust the coaches are encouraging the front players to "have a go" next time rather than try to construct "goal of the month" every time we have the ball. If you think the players aren't clicking, maybe that reflects the newness of the team and their lack of familiarity (Binho spent the game telling the others what to do even though he was the one who slotted in. maybe the strength of his personality on the pitch disrupted the understanding that has been growing between Ireland Tevez and SWP

I'm not going to argue about this with you though. It has been obvious for a good while that you think Hughes is the man to take us forward.

I'm happy for you to decide what we do and don't discuss if it makes things easier. And thanks for telling me what I think ;-). In fact what I know is that Hughes is the man in possession. What I think is that nothing has happened to justify sacking him or him resigning.

I don't. I feel someone experienced and who has winning mentality would be the best option for us right now. Once we've taken that first step of actually winning something and seriously challenging the big boys, we can look at other options. Right now we need to kick start "the project" on the pitch.

I know this is how you and many others feel. I also recall that most said we should wait until Christmas and see if we were on course for the Club's stated target of 6th. The doubters qualified that by insisting we should be higher than 6th rather than climbing towards it. I agreed then and I agree now. It's not Christmas just yet, so what we are seeing is that many are dissapointed with the football and results. The "project" is strategic, long term. these issues are tactical, short term, so I hope will not be a distraction to the club as much as they clearly are oin here.

I am however curious to hear that what Hughes as a manager has done to convince you of his abilities to extent that you'd be willing to argue that world class managers like Hiddink, Mourinho etc would be better options?

I think the issue here is whether we want to just buy success in undignified haste(the Al Fahim model) or build it with strong long term planning supported by an investment programme and building a sustainable model. You can be proud of something you build. You should have a little bit of shame if all you do is buy success (like the rags)

If you want it overnight then arguably we'd chase Rooney instead of Tevez. Ditch SWP for Tranaldo. Appoint Kenyon instead of Cookie. Bring in Ferdinand to strengthen the back line. Why omit the world's most successful manager from your list?
It's not about whether we have the best in the world in every role in the club, it's about whether we have the quality potential professionalism and plan to be the best in the world together.

What has Hughes done as a manager to show me he has the potential?

Well he's bought mostly wisely simultaneously weakening our main rivals. Focused on Prem experience
He's learned from the mistakes of "better managers" that a world class player may not automatically succeed in the prem
He's not thrown away the baby with the bathwater (Micah, SWP, Ireland starting on Saturday) 3 more on the bench
he's made brave decisions for the team, getting shut of trouble causers no matter how talented
he's erasing the legacy of "hard working triers who lose" (I loved Dunney but understand how his history could be inconsistent with our future)
He's addressed the squads weaknesses (whole new forward line, new CD)
he hasnt dropped three points against any of the second tier in the prem who have always been a threat to us
He is on target for a top six finish (we all want better) and a cup run

Good answer that. We just have to agree to disagree and see what happens in the future..... hopefully starting on wednesday!

[s1ty m]

...and we were in our current run of form, would the people currently calling for the managers head call for Hiddink's head too? I seriousy doubt it

Am just really interested in finding out the reasoning behind the abuse hurled towards the current manager at the end of the Hull game (along with the online insults that have followed). The reason I ask is that the "dirty rag/munich" insuts seem to die out when we play well, but be the first thing to be called upon when we don't.

Is it because you are gutted the team is not playing well, or kind of happy that it gives you an excuse to get rid of Hughes?

I heard an opposing player who in the scheme of things didnt bring great things to our club (Giovanni) receive more applause on saturday than our manager EVER has. What does this say about us city fans? We seem to have a real identity and priorites problem.

Its because after 18 months and £200m spent we still cant beat bottom half teams, we are only 2 places higher than we finished under Sven, we are not in Europe, we have not found a formation or even a regular first team and we are playing absolutely shite.

If I performed like this at my work I would not be in my job!!

totally, totally, totally agree.