Formation and Midfield....two questions

[ant london]

So....I'm as disappointed as anyone that we didn't manage to beat Liverpool at the weekend and yesterday's Spurs result compounded my upset somewhat.

However, the positives I took out of the game were:

- coming from behind again
- Stevie Ireland coming back to the form we saw last year
- Lescott looking much better (following his pretty impressive performance for England)
- Nedum getting back into the action and being in contention once more
- Tevez looking pretty bloody good and notably his interplay with Ireland (and also SWP to an extent)

The negatives were clearly the failure to defend the lead and the performance of Gareth Barry who turned in yet another underwhelming performance (and who I think we all know has been pretty poor since we played Villa).

Now the above lead me to two key questions:

With the resources we have, should we be lining up in a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3. And dependent upon which you think, who would be your (current and/or ideal) midfield quartet/trio

Personally, I think that 4-3-3 is the way we should be going......Robinho coming back into the team definitely leads us into that direction but I think that this is the formation that suits us best and gets the best performances absent him as well as including him.

Barry should be rested IMO. He has not become a bad player in the last month or so but he is not firing at present (just at the point where it looks as if Stevie IS starting to hit form and Robinho is coming back to fitness and Michael Johnson must also be on the verge of more involvement).

In line with all that, currently I would line up with

SWP----------De Jong----------Ireland

as my midfield 3. Ideally, I would like to pull SWP out of that and have Johnno on the right. I think that midfield would do the business for us, especially in light of what is in front of it.

My front three comprising (ideally) Tevez----------Adebayor---------Robinho. But with the option for SWP, Bellamy, Santa Cruz, Weiss to be rotated/switched for any of them.

I'd like us to set up with the team that can win a match and attack the opposition's weaknesses rather than set out to nullify/cope with their strengths and then look to gain a foothold ourselves.

Gareth Barry (and Vincent Kompany) still have a massive part to play in that approach but I would (for now...until GB recovers form) keep them on the bench and look to bring another strong midfielder on when we gain a lead and only then look to drop into a 4-4-2. The 4-4-2 doesn't mean that we stop attacking but it gives us more ammunition to break down the other team as they look to wrestle back the initiative.

[Mase]

Pretty much agree with everything you just said. Barry is a quality player but there's only so many games you can be carried through. Time for a rest I think.

[MaineRoadMemories]

What surprised me about the midfield on Saturday was that we lined up with a defensive 4-5-1 in the first half and our midfield never got near to supporting the attack. I guess the idea was to be a 4-5-1 when we didn't have the ball and a 4-3-3 when we did have the ball.

-----------------De Jong--------Ireland------------------

------------------------ Barry----------------------------
SWP----------------------------------------------Bellamy









----------------------Adebayor----------------------------


Stranger still was that Barry was playing the furthest forward of the centre midfielders and supporting Adebayor trying to get to his knock downs (which both players failed badly at) in the first half. Not sure whether Ireland was suppose to be playing that deep under instruction?

What was plain to see was when Tevez came on and linked up the play we played very fluid and attacking football with SWP and Adebayor both been more active.

Unfortunately Barry is killing us, attacking wise, in the centre of the park at the moment and needs to be taken out for a rest to allow Ireland to do what he is best at doing - coming from deep into the box and scoring.

[TonyM]

I'd replace SWP before Barry (even though I agree that Barry isn't on-form). If we go 433 we need the 3 in midfield to be proper CMs. IMO the candidates are ... in no particular order ... Ireland, Barry, Johnson, Dejong and Kompany.

SWP should be competing with Robinho, Tevez, Petrov, Weiss and Bellamy for one of the 2 wide positions in the 3 upfront.

To be honest, I think we are nothing more than a midtable team right now (our results are beginning to fit our performances...slightly better than average) and I'll hold my hands up and admit I don't know why or what can be done to improve. I just have to hope it'll work out.

[Dameerto]

4 3 3 but only one holding midfielder away - none at home (two central mids and Stevie playing in front of them at home)

[Mr Miyagi]

We need to sort out the shaky defence first. At the moment our central mids are too concerned about what is happening behind them. They need the confidence to join the attack, and for that they need confidence in the defenders behind them. That is the thing we have lost since the first 5 games of the season...

[Dameerto]

I disagree - we need to outshoot the opposition at home or away - the confidence will come when we start winning (and I will take a 4-3 win rather than a 1-1 draw any day)

[david yearsley]

Said before that there has to be a large slice of "trial and error" with such a competitive squad and that will continue a little longer, but I think we might just have stumbled on something very positive with our set up with Tevez 2nd half

[john@staustell]

I think 442 may be better at home. Next Saturday for example. With Tevez or Robinho in behind Ade.

On Saturday the gameplan was clearly not to concede, especially in the first 45.

Not sure how much of our change was down to their goal, or to a planned Tevez introduction once we had frustrated them for a while. Their goal sort of accelerated the pace of our step-up.

As for Barry Les says he needs a rest. But in the past he played a lot at left midfield or even left back for Villa and England (Rafa was going to play him left mid - "not signing him ruined our whole season plan" - daft twat!). I'd like to give that a try in some games and get him out of De Jong's way at the back and Ireland's at the front.

[ant london]

Along those lines of thinking John....we could play a diamond in midfield with


--------------------------------De Jong----------------------------
SWP----------------------------------------------------------Barry
--------------------------------Ireland-----------------------------

then I'd personally love to see Adebayor and Robinho in front of that. Johnson could be switched for SWP as and when.

Can't ever see that happening though

[kinsey]

In terms of formation, it depends on who is available. If Robinho is fit, 4-3-3 plays to the strengths of our squad more than 4-4-2. The main benefit is that Robinho can get more involved in the attacking play AND there is a little more solidity so we do not have to worry as much about him not tracking back etc.

At present, Ade takes the CF spot on merit and the fact that his physical presence is vital. However, I would be quite happy to see Bellamy coming off the bench to play alongside or as a direct replacement.

The right forward position is a straight contest between Tevez and SWP. After Saturday, Tevez is the man in front but this can and will change over the course of the season- the beauty of having a true squad!

Behind them, the question is whether you have one or two sitting. De jong is first choice in the role at present but if we were to have a second, I would put Kompany in above Barry at the moment. If we just go for Nige, I also think I would prefer Johnson to Barry. Clearly, Ireland would be the "free player".

However, if we go 4-4-2, I think if everyone was fit, my first choice pair in the middle would be Barry & Johnson with SWP and Bellamy outside them. Barry & Johnson are the most complete "midfielders" we have in as much as they can both compete, read a game and use the ball when they get it.

Up front, you then look to play Tevez or Robinho off Ade - I would love to see how Robinho and Ade looked together because I have not been too impressed overall with how Tevez and Ade have combined so far - although that might be partly down to the lack of match fitness that Carlos exhibited in the early part of the season.

Clearly, the problem with all this is that Ireland is left out of my 442. As I said earlier, I think 433 makes best use of the players in our squad, but when we have to change tactics, we should not be afraid to change the personnel to suit.

[sky_blue_stew]

In terms of formation, it depends on who is available. If Robinho is fit, 4-3-3 plays to the strengths of our squad more than 4-4-2. The main benefit is that Robinho can get more involved in the attacking play AND there is a little more solidity so we do not have to worry as much about him not tracking back etc.

At present, Ade takes the CF spot on merit and the fact that his physical presence is vital. However, I would be quite happy to see Bellamy coming off the bench to play alongside or as a direct replacement.

The right forward position is a straight contest between Tevez and SWP. After Saturday, Tevez is the man in front but this can and will change over the course of the season- the beauty of having a true squad!

Behind them, the question is whether you have one or two sitting. De jong is first choice in the role at present but if we were to have a second, I would put Kompany in above Barry at the moment. If we just go for Nige, I also think I would prefer Johnson to Barry. Clearly, Ireland would be the "free player".

However, if we go 4-4-2, I think if everyone was fit, my first choice pair in the middle would be Barry & Johnson with SWP and Bellamy outside them. Barry & Johnson are the most complete "midfielders" we have in as much as they can both compete, read a game and use the ball when they get it.

Up front, you then look to play Tevez or Robinho off Ade - I would love to see how Robinho and Ade looked together because I have not been too impressed overall with how Tevez and Ade have combined so far - although that might be partly down to the lack of match fitness that Carlos exhibited in the early part of the season.

Clearly, the problem with all this is that Ireland is left out of my 442. As I said earlier, I think 433 makes best use of the players in our squad, but when we have to change tactics, we should not be afraid to change the personnel to suit.

I agree that Barry and Johnson are the two most suitable players for a traditional central midfield role, but I rally don't want to see Ireland dropped, which is why I'd prefer de Jong holding and Ireland roaming forward, but then accommodating Barry and/or Johnson is then troublesome. We don't really have any "natural" wingers fit at the moment apart from SWP, who isn't a shoe-in for a starting place either. It's difficult, the whole system has to adopt quite radically depending on who is picked, which might explain why our perforamances haven't been that inspiring - the players are all very different, so learning each other's movement etc must be very tough!

[Kyle]

I think that the best way to go would be a 4-1-4-1. I would set it up something like this.

-------------------De Jong--------------------
------------------------------------------------
SWP-------Ireland-------Tevez/Barry------Robinho/Bellamy/Petrov
-----------------------------------------------
----------------Adebayor--------------------

I think that would be the way to line up now... IMO Ireland has to play, and has to be allowed to go forward.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

If I had a preference it would be a 4.3.3 rather than 4.4.2 BUT I don't really think it matters that much as long as the players we have out there play well. If Robbi or Tevez play as one of 2 up front they will inevitably play deep quite often and before you know it we are operating a 4.3.3.With the quality we have in all attacking positions it's performance and not shape which counts.

[FA cup winners 2006]

i think we should play with a rather flat 3 man midfield with the wide areas covered by Barry and Ireland and De Jong covering the middle and dropping back if necessary. Ireland and Barry would also have to push forward out wide and hit the box late from the sides. this would make them difficult to pick up as the full backs would have dropped in to cover tevez and robinho.

Robinho and Tevez to play behind Ade and create the space and drag the CB's all over the place.

positioning;

Ireland---------De Jong------------Barry

----------Tevez---------Robinho

-------------------Ade

When attacking;


----Zabba------------De Jong-----------Bridge

---Ireland-----------------------------------Barry

--------------Tevez---Ade-----Robinho


When Defending;

-----Zabba-----Toure-------Lescott-----Bridge

----Ireland----------De Jong-----------Barry

---------------Tevez-------Robinho

-----------------------Ade