A system to suit players...

[Wonderwall]

For me it's not as simple as picking our one best formation, as that should be flexible depending on who the opposition is.

Not getting beaten at Stamford Bridge would surely involve setting our stall out differently to trying to efficiently dispose of the likes of Burnley at home.

The problem is we've got a squad of players who have only been together for about 15 games and have not been playing together long enough to instinctively know how to work best as a team, in any one of the formations we could opt for.

To try to get that 'gelling' process to work is why I think we've been sticking to 4-4-2 (which some on here were screaming for last season) but this has been undermined somewhat by injuries, suspensions and dips in form/confidence.

I'm optimistic that the quality we've got will work this out and hope we'll be in a position where we can actually switch our formation during the course of games if we need to try something different when teams just try to park the bus and nick a point.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^








sorry ronan

[Original Dub]

Thanks Ronan...me?...annoy you...hahahahaha...perish the thought...:-)

There is one other thing however. We can only base our ideas and theories on the limited amount we see and know. What we don't know is what is in Hughes's head for the future. There has been mention of us looking for that creative midfielder and maybe Hughes is already on the trail. If so, he could be attempting to prepare the present midfield for a future role...who knows?

Not you mate THIS ^^^^^^^^!!

oh so you're a Ronan too. Confused me it did.

Ah so you're ronanK, no?

Is that where the name comes from chief?

[Slim]

The system is still a 4-3-3. The 4-4-2 is too static and god forbid we end up playing Barry and NDJ there, we will end up with no thrust coming out of the middle. I honestly believe it has to be NDJ OR Barry and in a 4-3-3 the formation would be.

Given
Richards--Toure--Lescott--Bridge
SWP--Ireland--Barry
Tevez--Adebayor--Robinho

I think Johnson could slot in for either SWP or Ireland(if he gets his 'engine' back) and NDJ for Barry. Richards or Zaba is a coin toss for me, but while Zabs managed to sell us short in the Wigan match with just stupid stupid yellow cards, had Richards or Dunne done that, they would be strung up on this board for a full month while Zaba has managed to escape without as much as a "silly boy". I think people are so set on Richards, they are afraid to criticise Zaba because they fear the alternative. Up front, Bellamy can stand in for any of the front men and Petrov slots in the only logical spot...not the fucking right side.

Ireland for me is the most important player, he really does have it all as a player and while he hasn't been in great form, I think if you find the video you will see that Adebayor scored at least two of his goals because of Ireland's runs from deep confusing defenders and Ade running into the hole. Shaun and Robbie are really vital as well as they both do great off the ball runs that drag defenders around and confuse matters. Robbie has such class at this, I wonder why people slag him for not scoring goals when even by not touching the ball he ends up as a crucial part of attacks that result in goals.

[dazby]

I agree with a lot of the points but I think there's a real danger of over-reacting.

Part of what we're seeing is attempts to put a long-term plan in place. Sometimes it's necessary to accept that a strategy didn't pay-off today but with some tweaking it might work rather than giving up entirely on the formation. Sometimes it's not.

This looks like a formation designed to deal with an absent Robinho (and Ireland). In a lot of ways, I can see Ireland's future as playing deeper but still making forays forward, rather than bombing forward every single time. But that will take time for him to really learn. The end result will be that we will have a team that's more resilient to changes and can change shape to counter the opposition.

Birmingham lifted their game to play us. With a takeover boon they might well have been expected to turn us over. I'm quite pleased that we managed to get a point in spite of our failings, in fact, my impression is that they left there happier with a point than us and happy in the knowledge that their hard work in disrupting our play had contributed so much to us having our worst game of the season so far (and hopefully overall).

That's exactly what happened, we had our worst game of the season so far. There aren't many seasons where 10 games in we've been able to point to a performance like that (which was actually pretty decent) and call it our worst of the season.

Being forced to play Santa-Cruz was tough. After such a long lay off he played a full game mid-week and then was expected to run and run against Birmingham. It wasn't easy to watch him struggling knowing that he's better than that.

Ronk just on your point that I've bolded - why do you think / would you want Ireland's role in the future to be as a deeper lying midfielder? He was player of the year last year by being given a licence when going forward and playing higher up the pitch? He is superb at this and very effective so why have him learn a new trade that he might not be very good at / as effective at?

Whilst he is superb up the pitch, last season we conceded a lot of goals on the counterattack due to Ireland being so far forward that our midfield couldn't cope. Our defenders were lambasted for not being up to it when there was no midfield to protect them.

[shawzy]

Some really good posts.Well done to all.
Does anyone think a MF of Ireland ------Johnno------Barry would work and be used in certain games?

[ant london]

Does anyone think a MF of Ireland ------Johnno------Barry would work brilliantly?

yes, yes I do.

I think Nigel is a player who is essential/useful in certain games (and has helped give us some stability/rigidity in this transitional first phase of the season) but once the back 4 are playing better and we have Robinho back on the left with another two with him up top, that midfield should provide all the steel and guile we should need to dispose of most teams in the PL

[salford city]

Does anyone think a MF of Ireland ------Johnno------Barry would work brilliantly?

yes, yes I do.

I think Nigel is a player who is essential/useful in certain games (and has helped give us some stability/rigidity in this transitional first phase of the season) but once the back 4 are playing better and we have Robinho back on the left with another two with him up top, that midfield should provide all the steel and guile we should need to dispose of most teams in the PL

Me too, if we can get a fully fit Johnson back that would be a real bonus to the team. Barry holding whilst Irealand & Johnson join in with the attacks.

[Nick]

Personally, Im wondering why THE FUCK we have ditched the fluid, attacking 4-3-3 that we went with all last season and also in our winning streak this season! All of a sudden, we had a few injuries and end up going 442 without petrov and sticking tevez up front. (I have no idea where tevez's best position is, hes an odd one)

[ronk]

Thanks Ronan...me?...annoy you...hahahahaha...perish the thought...:-)

There is one other thing however. We can only base our ideas and theories on the limited amount we see and know. What we don't know is what is in Hughes's head for the future. There has been mention of us looking for that creative midfielder and maybe Hughes is already on the trail. If so, he could be attempting to prepare the present midfield for a future role...who knows?

Not you mate THIS ^^^^^^^^!!

oh so you're a Ronan too. Confused me it did.

Ah so you're ronanK, no?

Is that where the name comes from chief?

Indeed it does.

[ronk]

I agree with some of your points, i.e. although shortish I think he needs to work on his heading. However your main point of him playing deeper is still one I don't agree with. He is excellent an anticipating passes and intercepting them higher up the pitch and then playing that killer ball to our wingers / strikers.

Our concern isn't about being hard to break down (which is what you say we will improve upon if he plays deeper) - certainly not in midfield. We have 2 more experienced and better deeper lying midfielders in NDJ and Barry so why add another? If one or both of those can't do a job in there then we need to buy someone else, not change arguably our best attacking weapon into one.

Anyway I realise that was only a small part of your original post - bigger picture is I think we need Ireland in (and high up the pitch!). For who though? Erm...don't know.

Ireland is someone who had developed his game in a lot of ways, I think he can improve at things he hasn't necessarily been great at, and become a better all-round player for it. I don't want him to stop doing things like winning the ball high up the pitch or slipping markers in the box by moving away from the most obvious danger areas, I just want him to be smarter about doing it.

Games ebb and flow, there are times when you're coming under sustained pressure, sometimes I'd prefer him to defend more conventionally when we've been coming under pressure and then focus on retaining possession if a quick break is an really low percentage play (i.e. it's not on), then we can build pressure ourselves. Many times I've seen teams against us soak up pressure when we're in possession and suddenly break out and press the ball carrier, isolate him, win possession and sometimes even start a fast break. The key to it is to pick your moment. When someone carries the ball towards Ireland at the moment they know that he'll go for the intercept almost every time. The key to winning intercepts is surprise, if you know he'll lunge forward you can be ready to switch direction and pass. His own effectiveness has been part of his downfall in that opposition players are better prepared for him. When he makes a run into the box he's a danger man. It doesn't matter what position he takes up, he becomes a priority, hence he'll be marked more often. If they're not worried about him continuing the run and nipping in front to get on the end of a cross they can change their defensive style.

When we're under pressure the threat that he represents to teams in possession is invaluable. But if he misses a tackle and ends up leaving space for someone to carry the ball into (or receive a one-two) we end up under even bigger pressure. He could just hold his position and watch the move go down a blind alleyway before a hopeful ball is knocked in. I actually think that being less predictable in terms of when he goes for the ball will make him more effective at robbing in. Feint going for it and then come back in on the guy who's dummying the pass, he'll be stuck. Don't make it easy for him.

That critique of his play was not valid today. Those aspects of his game were very good. I felt that he won the ball probably more often as a result and very little Burnley attacking play came through him.

[10.Goater_Legend]

- - - - - - - - - - - - Given

- - Zaba - - Toure - - Lescott - - Bridge

- - - - - - - - Barry or de Jong

- - - - SWP or Johno - - - - - Ireland

- - - Tevez - - - - - - - - - Robinho or Bellamy

- - - - - - - - - Adebayor

My first 11 when all fit would be.

- - - - - - - - - - - Given

- - Zaba - - Toure - - Lescott - - Bridge

- - - - - - - - - - - de Jong

- - - - - Johnson - - - - - Ireland

- - - Tevez - - - - - - - - - - Robinho

- - - - - - - - - - Adebayor

Barry wouldnt get in on current form.

[mr_nool]

given the quality of our sqaud, i think it's quite safe to conclude that the system isn't the main issue. Something much more fundamental ismissing. I don't know if its confindece or attitude, but it sems to be in the heads of both the player and the managment.

[mcfc1632]

The system is still a 4-3-3. The 4-4-2 is too static and god forbid we end up playing Barry and NDJ there, we will end up with no thrust coming out of the middle. I honestly believe it has to be NDJ OR Barry and in a 4-3-3 the formation would be.

Given
Richards--Toure--Lescott--Bridge
SWP--Ireland--Barry
Tevez--Adebayor--Robinho

I think Johnson could slot in for either SWP or Ireland(if he gets his 'engine' back) and NDJ for Barry. Richards or Zaba is a coin toss for me, but while Zabs managed to sell us short in the Wigan match with just stupid stupid yellow cards, had Richards or Dunne done that, they would be strung up on this board for a full month while Zaba has managed to escape without as much as a "silly boy". I think people are so set on Richards, they are afraid to criticise Zaba because they fear the alternative. Up front, Bellamy can stand in for any of the front men and Petrov slots in the only logical spot...not the fucking right side.

Ireland for me is the most important player, he really does have it all as a player and while he hasn't been in great form, I think if you find the video you will see that Adebayor scored at least two of his goals because of Ireland's runs from deep confusing defenders and Ade running into the hole. Shaun and Robbie are really vital as well as they both do great off the ball runs that drag defenders around and confuse matters. Robbie has such class at this, I wonder why people slag him for not scoring goals when even by not touching the ball he ends up as a crucial part of attacks that result in goals.

I agree on that part and think that new RB is a real priority - and one that is a genuine wing back because our formation needs width and quality crosses to come from them

But you are right - for me certainly the most exciting thing about seeing Zab's name on the team sheet is that it means Richards is on the bench and that is not likely to change

[mcfc1632]

One thing that was clear to me today was how much we missed NDJ - I have read lots of criticism about us being too defensive in MF - but take NDJ out of there and just look how much space to create the opposition had - all top teams seem to play with someone in that role (perhaps except Arsenal) - just because he does not do fancy things people miss just what he does bring

For me there are certain givens about our selection - so the rest becomes reasonably simple as well (easy this manager lark isn't it):


1/ Ade with Rob and Tevez behind him should be a given

2/ Width and good crosses are required from our FBs - so we need a top new one on the right and Bridge on the left - both need to be able to get down to the by-line with confidence that we are set up to cover behind

3/ Given will start (easy one that) with Toure, Lescott, Bridge and new RB in front of him

4/ NDJ would start in front of the back four adding cover left and right - especially when FBs are forward

That only leaves 2 positions to be decided and that depends on who you are playing etc

Against a Chelsea away, I would have Barry in to provide more support also Stevie - to sport the break away (I am talking generally here - I know that Rob will / may not be fit) - against a Burnley at home I would prefer Stevie (in a slightly more advanced role to get beyond the strikers) and one of Bellers, SWP or Petrov etc

[Dubaimancityfan]

Mainly good posts and good points raised.
Last season we had problems with our strikers. Strike that, we had no strikers to mention. But we had a good midfield
and evidence of that is our highest scorers were Robbie and Ireland.
This season we have the right strikers but they are not getting the required service due to:
1. Absence of Robbie
2. Drop in form of Ireland
3. We don't have Elano (or someone like him) anymore. Tevez should be doing that job but is not.
4. Playing 2 DM's even at home makes our central midfield very dull and unproductive. Most of our goals have come from
set pieces and corners (at least we have improved there) and from chances created by wide players (SWP, Bellamy/Petrov).

All this can be solved by the return of Robbie and return to form by Ireland which we saw some signs off yesterday
(and if not then Johnson should be used more in that position).
Tevez should be controlled more and told to pass more instead of trying to score spectacular goals all the time and
Ade should be told to stay in the penalty area instead of drifting to wide positions. We have enough player to do that.