A system to suit players...

[Colin the King]

I'd just like people's views on this, it's been touched on in a few threads so I'd like to get a proper discussion going.

It seems to me that we have neither at the moment, in that over the last few weeks a 4-4-2 has been used, with two defensive midfielders and two wingers. NQDP made the point that we're set up to have six players defending and four attacking, therefore we neither attack nor defend as a unit. Maybe this is why the team looks a little disjointed.

Anyway, a system to suit the players at our disposal, in my view anyway, is something a bit less one-dimensional than the current one. We have a number of creatively minded players who need space to cause significant damage. I'm thinking of Ireland, Robinho, Tevez and to a lesser extent Petrov and SWP. Last season, as Grob pointed out, we had a good system in place where Robinho and SWP operated as secondary or wide strikers either side of a target man (Caicedo/Benjani/Jo/Bellamy)- they were complimented by a defensive midfielder (Kompany/de Jong), a midfield 'general' (Ireland) and an all-out attacking/linking midfielder (Elano). The argument presented is that rather than abandoning that system due to its shortcomings last season, we should use it now with better players in place. We can add Adebayor, Tevez and Barry to such a system now.

The next viable alternative (and one I'd rather not see) is for Hughes to stick with his 'tried and trusted' system and bring in players to properly utilise it in January. For it to be successful, it's absolutely crucial that the team has wingers with excellent delivery. Bentley and Pedersen were the reason Blackburn did so well and why Santa Cruz and McCarthy scored as many goals as they did. The wide players we have at City are Bellamy, Robinho, SWP and Petrov- only Petrov has anywhere near the required crossing ability. The others will always look to cut inside and support the strikers.

This isn't intended as a knee jerk reaction to recent results, however, I am a little concerned that the system we've adopted simply won't be effective in the long term due to the players we have. In our last four games our weaknesses have been cruelly exposed and in trying to get back into and win games we've resorted to punting the ball 50 yards- again, not much use when our attackers are mostly under 5ft10.

So, assuming there are three choices-

-Make a change to the formation to enable the players we have to perform better
-Keep the 4-4-2 and bring in players who are effective in it
-Leave things as they are, it'll all work out in the end

what do you choose, and why?

[salford city]

For me we need to change the tactics and formation to suit the best team that we can put out. I'd discount 442 with the current crop as we don't have two quality wingers to make it a feasable option. Also,the two DM's are in place (I'm sure) as insurance against the new defensive unit. If we can get Toure back into the centre, then I'd ditch one of the two DM's and opt for a more fluid front six. Personalise it whichever way suits against the opposition on the day but any team would struggle with the movement and inter-change in personnel during the game. The current set-up would work with a fully fit Ade as he would hold the ball up and allow the runners to come on, something that an un-fit RSC is not able to do. We're set up not to lose at the moment which is important as it sets the mind-set particularily away from home. Spin it around and this is a system that is not set up to win...I think we're only persisting with the current formation due to injuries to Ade & Toure. Add to that Robbie & Stevie and all of a sudden, the options are there again for us. I'm sure that Hughes knows this and that this will be reflected in future team selections.

Saying all of the above, I'd love to see Barry, Ireland & Johnson as the middle three in 4-3-3. Let's give it a try against Burnley

[Blue Since 76]

My preferred formation would be as below. I've tried it without names first, to avoid some of the arguments

GK
RB CH CH LB
DM
M M
F F
CF

Using the players we currently have, assuming all were fit:

Given
Zab Toure Lescott Bridge
De Jong
Ireland Barry
Tevez Robinho
Adebayor

The DM provides the defensive cover, dropping back to protect the full backs' position if they go forward.
The two midfielders are the link from defence and DM to attack. With the DM in place, they don't have to be overly cautious, especially against the poorer sides, but would still need to do some covering. Barry can obviously do defensive, as he does for England, but can also provide the passes needed for the front players
The three up front are interchangeable forwards, with no real defensive duties, other than closing down defenders in their area. As long as there's a Bellamy, SWP or Tevex in that 3, there would be enough work rate to provide some cover, even though you wouldn't be reliant on it. If you were playing a side with an attacking RB and right winger, you might choose Bellamy for that game for the protection he would provide, but it would be a one off.

In midfield, Johnson would give a more box to box option than Ireland, if he gets back to where he was before his injury problems. In that case, he would be my preference to Ireland, as Ireland's game seems to be built more on appearing in space rathering than driving forwards with the ball.

Obviously, if the players were to change either through injuries or through transfers, you may need to adjust e.g. 2 really attacking fullbacks would require more cover

[M147WN]

Agree with all of that!
Good post!

[Moonchesteri]

First choice: -Make a change to the formation to enable the players we have to perform better.

Now how to change the formation, that is up to the manager to decide. This is where he earns his huge wage.
I'd personally make try to make sure we don't have such a huge gap between midfield and attack. Maybe with 4-2-3-1 instead of 4-4-2 on away matches and 4-3-3 at home (like last season) `?

[john68]

Great post Eoin,

For me the big problem is that we have World class players in almost every position but we are lacking a World class creative midfielder to organise the team around. That midfield genius in the centre of midfield who can pull the strings and orchestrate the play. For that reason, at present, the role of ireland is crucial as will be role of Johnson when he returns to playing a full role.

We have plenty of workrate with SWP, Bellamy and Tevez but nobody who has the absolute class to dictate the attaking centre and control the direstion of play. Last season, Ireland fulfilled much of that role but this season he has been asked to play more defensively and it shows. Tevez seems to operate around that area but his energy is not a replacement for the class we lose.

For me, Ireland HAS to be allowed to take that position and rekindle last year's form.

[DoomMerchant]

look...im not expert at formations or tactics, but what is obvious to me is that the players don't like it. our offensive-minded players are trying to create too much on their own...how many times has Tevez or Petrov tried a wonderstrike instead of looking for link up play? Ireland seems lost on the pitch. Barry is a fuclin sieve lately. NDJ looks fucling tired..his kung-fu has been weak lately. And the defense looks under constant threat due to our lack of possession. We're hoofing the ball as much as i remember under SP, and the tactics are just all wrong.

Now i don't believe for a second that the shit we're playing is the shit Hughes wants to see or what we do in practice (Higgy?), but it's like once the bullets start flying, the plans just go out the window and we revert to form and people just try and compensate for our inability to dictate pace, and maintain possession.

CTKs points are pretty spot on about wingers who can cross and further our set pieces fuclin suck ass. We're setup it seems to play to score not from the run of play but from set pieces and crosses and we have no fuclin ability to do that. last season and this season's successes were built on fantastic attacking in the run of play and on the counter. Where the fucl did that go?

I'd love to see this team with Ade and Robson alongside Tevez and Bellamy to see what we could really do as a unit before i truly get stressed, but it's pretty dire as of late. i believe SWP and Petrov will need to see the bench to accommodate Robson and Ade upon their return. i'd have this:

Given
Zabs-Toure-Lescott-Bridge
Bellamy-Ireland-NDJ-Robson
Tevez-Ade

cheers

[GingeryBlue]

Good topic and some good points.

I personally think that our run of four draws (wheels are off, Hughes out, we're going down, load of shit ad nauseum) has had a lot to do with missing Ireland. With 2 deeper lying midfielders (I don't like the term 'defensive' midfielders, everyone defends), there seems to be a real lack of creativity higher up the pitch, 'in the hole' where Ireland is so effective. We have wide players in two of Bellamy, SWP and Petrov (plus Robbie once fit) and 2 forwards. Therefore I think we're relatively easy to defend against as the opposing full backs, a lot of the time along with the help of wingers or central midfielders - hence the 'doubling up', are looking after our wide men easily as they tend to be our only source when we're on the attack - no Stevie equals no threat through the middle in my opinion.

Therefore what tends to happen is Tevez drops deeper and deeper, in effect becoming our creative 'Ireland' type player and the truth is that isn't him. I'd much rather he was on the shoulder of the last defender making runs for Ireland, SWP, Bellamy, Petrov to find. He might be a bit headless chicken-esqe sometimes but I'd rather he was running around and causing havoc nearer the opposition's goal than as deep as he has been for the last few weeks.

To sum up, we need Ireland in, but for who is open to debate - personally I'd 'rotate him' in for NDJ or Barry (rather than our wide men) as I think we need to keep width to stretch the opposition defence and create space for Stevie to exploit.

Piece of piss this manager lark.

[ronk]

I agree with a lot of the points but I think there's a real danger of over-reacting.

Part of what we're seeing is attempts to put a long-term plan in place. Sometimes it's necessary to accept that a strategy didn't pay-off today but with some tweaking it might work rather than giving up entirely on the formation. Sometimes it's not.

This looks like a formation designed to deal with an absent Robinho (and Ireland). In a lot of ways, I can see Ireland's future as playing deeper but still making forays forward, rather than bombing forward every single time. But that will take time for him to really learn. The end result will be that we will have a team that's more resilient to changes and can change shape to counter the opposition.

Birmingham lifted their game to play us. With a takeover boon they might well have been expected to turn us over. I'm quite pleased that we managed to get a point in spite of our failings, in fact, my impression is that they left there happier with a point than us and happy in the knowledge that their hard work in disrupting our play had contributed so much to us having our worst game of the season so far (and hopefully overall).

That's exactly what happened, we had our worst game of the season so far. There aren't many seasons where 10 games in we've been able to point to a performance like that (which was actually pretty decent) and call it our worst of the season.

Being forced to play Santa-Cruz was tough. After such a long lay off he played a full game mid-week and then was expected to run and run against Birmingham. It wasn't easy to watch him struggling knowing that he's better than that.

[GingeryBlue]

I agree with a lot of the points but I think there's a real danger of over-reacting.

Part of what we're seeing is attempts to put a long-term plan in place. Sometimes it's necessary to accept that a strategy didn't pay-off today but with some tweaking it might work rather than giving up entirely on the formation. Sometimes it's not.

This looks like a formation designed to deal with an absent Robinho (and Ireland). In a lot of ways, I can see Ireland's future as playing deeper but still making forays forward, rather than bombing forward every single time. But that will take time for him to really learn. The end result will be that we will have a team that's more resilient to changes and can change shape to counter the opposition.

Birmingham lifted their game to play us. With a takeover boon they might well have been expected to turn us over. I'm quite pleased that we managed to get a point in spite of our failings, in fact, my impression is that they left there happier with a point than us and happy in the knowledge that their hard work in disrupting our play had contributed so much to us having our worst game of the season so far (and hopefully overall).

That's exactly what happened, we had our worst game of the season so far. There aren't many seasons where 10 games in we've been able to point to a performance like that (which was actually pretty decent) and call it our worst of the season.

Being forced to play Santa-Cruz was tough. After such a long lay off he played a full game mid-week and then was expected to run and run against Birmingham. It wasn't easy to watch him struggling knowing that he's better than that.

Ronk just on your point that I've bolded - why do you think / would you want Ireland's role in the future to be as a deeper lying midfielder? He was player of the year last year by being given a licence when going forward and playing higher up the pitch? He is superb at this and very effective so why have him learn a new trade that he might not be very good at / as effective at?

[john68]

With Ireland playing deeper, there is nobody adequately covering that all important hole behind the strikers. Too often there is no outlet for defensive players to feed the ball forward to a pair of feet, except to go wide.
The energy players often go looking for the ball by going too deep and/or running from that area. It leads to our defence often having little option but to lump the ball upfield.

Wher is Colin Bell, Ali Benarbia or Asa Hartford when you need 'em?

[Dronny]

look...im not expert at formations or tactics, but what is obvious to me is that the players don't like it. our offensive-minded players are trying to create too much on their own...how many times has Tevez or Petrov tried a wonderstrike instead of looking for link up play? Ireland seems lost on the pitch. Barry is a fuclin sieve lately. NDJ looks fucling tired..his kung-fu has been weak lately. And the defense looks under constant threat due to our lack of possession. We're hoofing the ball as much as i remember under SP, and the tactics are just all wrong.

Now i don't believe for a second that the shit we're playing is the shit Hughes wants to see or what we do in practice (Higgy?), but it's like once the bullets start flying, the plans just go out the window and we revert to form and people just try and compensate for our inability to dictate pace, and maintain possession.

CTKs points are pretty spot on about wingers who can cross and further our set pieces fuclin suck ass. We're setup it seems to play to score not from the run of play but from set pieces and crosses and we have no fuclin ability to do that. last season and this season's successes were built on fantastic attacking in the run of play and on the counter. Where the fucl did that go?

I'd love to see this team with Ade and Robson alongside Tevez and Bellamy to see what we could really do as a unit before i truly get stressed, but it's pretty dire as of late. i believe SWP and Petrov will need to see the bench to accommodate Robson and Ade upon their return. i'd have this:

Given
Zabs-Toure-Lescott-Bridge
Bellamy-Ireland-NDJ-Robson
Tevez-Ade

cheers

Agree totally with your selection Doomie as its the same as I've said in other threads, I bet we'd even choose the same tea lady!

[ronk]

Ronk just on your point that I've bolded - why do you think / would you want Ireland's role in the future to be as a deeper lying midfielder? He was player of the year last year by being given a licence when going forward and playing higher up the pitch? He is superb at this and very effective so why have him learn a new trade that he might not be very good at / as effective at?

I meant deeper than he had been last season, not necessarily deep itself.

He's been a great player at finding space between tracking midfielders and defenders when the ball is coming into the box, I don't for a moment want him to stop doing that. But I also think that he could be almost just as effective at it with slightly rarer forays, if nothing else it would increase the impact of them. There are aspects of his game, I'd like to see him improve. If he was a stronger headerer of the ball he could probably find himself free in the box often enough to get a few goals.

He tackles well and passes very well. He could be a very effective box to box midfielder with a bit of work on aspects of his game. This would really help out with the solidity of the team. His primary defensive role appears, at times, to be focused on stopping breaks by tracking and tackling players and setting up fast breaks by stealing the ball. Watching him at times I sometimes feel that he should continue tracking deeper at times rather than stopping if the danger isn't immediate and taking a position of waiting to receive the ball and start an attack. If that means he needs to hold on some breaks or can't get forward then so be it, I think the benefits outweigh the costs. We'll be a much harder team to break down with Ireland standing goal side and forcing the player in possession to pass rather than going all out to either win the ball and break or let the player past him. It's fine to do that some of the time, but if you do it every time players adapt to it and find it easier to get past you.

[GingeryBlue]

Ronk just on your point that I've bolded - why do you think / would you want Ireland's role in the future to be as a deeper lying midfielder? He was player of the year last year by being given a licence when going forward and playing higher up the pitch? He is superb at this and very effective so why have him learn a new trade that he might not be very good at / as effective at?

I meant deeper than he had been last season, not necessarily deep itself.

He's been a great player at finding space between tracking midfielders and defenders when the ball is coming into the box, I don't for a moment want him to stop doing that. But I also think that he could be almost just as effective at it with slightly rarer forays, if nothing else it would increase the impact of them. There are aspects of his game, I'd like to see him improve. If he was a stronger headerer of the ball he could probably find himself free in the box often enough to get a few goals.

He tackles well and passes very well. He could be a very effective box to box midfielder with a bit of work on aspects of his game. This would really help out with the solidity of the team. His primary defensive role appears, at times, to be focused on stopping breaks by tracking and tackling players and setting up fast breaks by stealing the ball. Watching him at times I sometimes feel that he should continue tracking deeper at times rather than stopping if the danger isn't immediate and taking a position of waiting to receive the ball and start an attack. If that means he needs to hold on some breaks or can't get forward then so be it, I think the benefits outweigh the costs. We'll be a much harder team to break down with Ireland standing goal side and forcing the player in possession to pass rather than going all out to either win the ball and break or let the player past him. It's fine to do that some of the time, but if you do it every time players adapt to it and find it easier to get past you.

I agree with some of your points, i.e. although shortish I think he needs to work on his heading. However your main point of him playing deeper is still one I don't agree with. He is excellent an anticipating passes and intercepting them higher up the pitch and then playing that killer ball to our wingers / strikers.

Our concern isn't about being hard to break down (which is what you say we will improve upon if he plays deeper) - certainly not in midfield. We have 2 more experienced and better deeper lying midfielders in NDJ and Barry so why add another? If one or both of those can't do a job in there then we need to buy someone else, not change arguably our best attacking weapon into one.

Anyway I realise that was only a small part of your original post - bigger picture is I think we need Ireland in (and high up the pitch!). For who though? Erm...don't know.

[Original Dub]

Great post Eoin,

For me the big problem is that we have World class players in almost every position but we are lacking a World class creative midfielder to organise the team around. That midfield genius in the centre of midfield who can pull the strings and orchestrate the play. For that reason, at present, the role of ireland is crucial as will be role of Johnson when he returns to playing a full role.

We have plenty of workrate with SWP, Bellamy and Tevez but nobody who has the absolute class to dictate the attaking centre and control the direstion of play. Last season, Ireland fulfilled much of that role but this season he has been asked to play more defensively and it shows. Tevez seems to operate around that area but his energy is not a replacement for the class we lose.

For me, Ireland HAS to be allowed to take that position and rekindle last year's form.

Man, if it didn't annoy the fuck out of me so much, I'd have the word 'this' in capital letters under this post and load of annoying little arrows pointing up at it.

Bang on John. bang on.

[john68]

Thanks Ronan...me?...annoy you...hahahahaha...perish the thought...:-)

There is one other thing however. We can only base our ideas and theories on the limited amount we see and know. What we don't know is what is in Hughes's head for the future. There has been mention of us looking for that creative midfielder and maybe Hughes is already on the trail. If so, he could be attempting to prepare the present midfield for a future role...who knows?

[Original Dub]

Thanks Ronan...me?...annoy you...hahahahaha...perish the thought...:-)

There is one other thing however. We can only base our ideas and theories on the limited amount we see and know. What we don't know is what is in Hughes's head for the future. There has been mention of us looking for that creative midfielder and maybe Hughes is already on the trail. If so, he could be attempting to prepare the present midfield for a future role...who knows?

Not you mate THIS ^^^^^^^^!!

[ronk]

I agree with some of your points, i.e. although shortish I think he needs to work on his heading. However your main point of him playing deeper is still one I don't agree with. He is excellent an anticipating passes and intercepting them higher up the pitch and then playing that killer ball to our wingers / strikers.

Our concern isn't about being hard to break down (which is what you say we will improve upon if he plays deeper) - certainly not in midfield. We have 2 more experienced and better deeper lying midfielders in NDJ and Barry so why add another? If one or both of those can't do a job in there then we need to buy someone else, not change arguably our best attacking weapon into one.

Anyway I realise that was only a small part of your original post - bigger picture is I think we need Ireland in (and high up the pitch!). For who though? Erm...don't know.

Ireland is someone who had developed his game in a lot of ways, I think he can improve at things he hasn't necessarily been great at, and become a better all-round player for it. I don't want him to stop doing things like winning the ball high up the pitch or slipping markers in the box by moving away from the most obvious danger areas, I just want him to be smarter about doing it.

Games ebb and flow, there are times when you're coming under sustained pressure, sometimes I'd prefer him to defend more conventionally when we've been coming under pressure and then focus on retaining possession if a quick break is an really low percentage play (i.e. it's not on), then we can build pressure ourselves. Many times I've seen teams against us soak up pressure when we're in possession and suddenly break out and press the ball carrier, isolate him, win possession and sometimes even start a fast break. The key to it is to pick your moment. When someone carries the ball towards Ireland at the moment they know that he'll go for the intercept almost every time. The key to winning intercepts is surprise, if you know he'll lunge forward you can be ready to switch direction and pass. His own effectiveness has been part of his downfall in that opposition players are better prepared for him. When he makes a run into the box he's a danger man. It doesn't matter what position he takes up, he becomes a priority, hence he'll be marked more often. If they're not worried about him continuing the run and nipping in front to get on the end of a cross they can change their defensive style.

When we're under pressure the threat that he represents to teams in possession is invaluable. But if he misses a tackle and ends up leaving space for someone to carry the ball into (or receive a one-two) we end up under even bigger pressure. He could just hold his position and watch the move go down a blind alleyway before a hopeful ball is knocked in. I actually think that being less predictable in terms of when he goes for the ball will make him more effective at robbing in. Feint going for it and then come back in on the guy who's dummying the pass, he'll be stuck. Don't make it easy for him.

[ronk]

Thanks Ronan...me?...annoy you...hahahahaha...perish the thought...:-)

There is one other thing however. We can only base our ideas and theories on the limited amount we see and know. What we don't know is what is in Hughes's head for the future. There has been mention of us looking for that creative midfielder and maybe Hughes is already on the trail. If so, he could be attempting to prepare the present midfield for a future role...who knows?

Not you mate THIS ^^^^^^^^!!

oh so you're a Ronan too. Confused me it did.

[AlpsMaster]

For me it's not as simple as picking our one best formation, as that should be flexible depending on who the opposition is.

Not getting beaten at Stamford Bridge would surely involve setting our stall out differently to trying to efficiently dispose of the likes of Burnley at home.

The problem is we've got a squad of players who have only been together for about 15 games and have not been playing together long enough to instinctively know how to work best as a team, in any one of the formations we could opt for.

To try to get that 'gelling' process to work is why I think we've been sticking to 4-4-2 (which some on here were screaming for last season) but this has been undermined somewhat by injuries, suspensions and dips in form/confidence.

I'm optimistic that the quality we've got will work this out and hope we'll be in a position where we can actually switch our formation during the course of games if we need to try something different when teams just try to park the bus and nick a point.