Tough times for West Ham

[ronk]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/sep/03/west-ham-financial-crisis-37m-loss

Could have been a lot worse. They almost went into administration and only the fact that the banks didn't think a 10 point penalty would help them get their money back kept it from happening. It'll take a few years but they'll pull through it if nothing else happens.

They made mistakes but much of it was beyond their control. They've had some rotten luck with injuries to (admittedly injury prone) signings.

[Steve]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/sep/03/west-ham-financial-crisis-37m-loss

Could have been a lot worse. They almost went into administration and only the fact that the banks didn't think a 10 point penalty would help them get their money back kept it from happening. It'll take a few years but they'll pull through it if nothing else happens.

They made mistakes but much of it was beyond their control. They've had some rotten luck with injuries to (admittedly injury prone) signings.

Handing out stupidly large contracts to players like Lucas Neill is always going to end in tears

[Dameerto]

Just the sort of club Platini wants in the Chump's League - not the evil debtless types like us.

[Slim]

Didn't they hand Dyer a 70k/week contract. If this is their wage policy then it's no surprise, we had Anelka on 40k/week as the top earner before we had a sugar daddy and there was a concern over the wage structure.

No doubt somehow this is our fault for ruining football though.

[Crossie]

Having Zola as their manager is like us having Messi upfront.

Zola is worth 20 points a season for them, they looked like going down last season early on until he came in.

Theyll still go down this season. With 20 points lol

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Having Zola as their manager is like us having Messi upfront.

Zola is worth 20 points a season for them, they looked like going down last season early on until he came in.

Theyll still go down this season. With 20 points lol

Very true.
I've been extremely impressed with Zola's work. Considering the restrainments he has had, he has done brilliant job getting the side to play good positive and fairly efective football with very limited pool of talent. He has also been able to squeeze young players to side and make them play to their full ability.

I can see great managerial career for him. West Ham are going down in few years though.

[Ted Hughes]

Having Zola as their manager is like us having Messi upfront.

Zola is worth 20 points a season for them, they looked like going down last season early on until he came in.

Theyll still go down this season. With 20 points lol

Very true.
I've been extremely impressed with Zola's work. Considering the restrainments he has had, he has done brilliant job getting the side to play good positive and fairly efective football with very limited pool of talent. He has also been able to squeeze young players to side and make them play to their full ability.

I can see great managerial career for him. West Ham are going down in few years though.

Very impressed with Zola so far. He's got stuck in & worked rather than complaining about how impossible the job is. It's lucky for him that Upson didn't leave but he's a very very lucky man that he didn't manage to land Benjani who could well have been another expensive injured disaster. If West Ham are to survive in the future he's got to be a lot more creative in the transfer market than signing people like Benjani, that's a Pearce type move. He'll probably lose players & he needs to find new affordable, preferably young, talent to replace them.

[MaineRoadMemories]

They'll have to sell again in January to pay the next installment for Sheff Utd. Upson will be the next out of the door.

Reading this article and hearing about Pompey asking favours of other clubs to stay out of admin means its only a matter of time before one prem teams does go into admin.

It's balancing books time for football and the only way that can be achieved is by player wages going down to a realistic level. I'm sure behind the scenes owners of clubs are discussing how they make a capped wages system work.

Also Accrington Stanley have a £300,000 tax bill they have to pay in the next month otherwise they will go to the wall (again!) You would have thought they would have learned by now.

[Ted Hughes]

They'll have to sell again in January to pay the next installment for Sheff Utd. Upson will be the next out of the door.

Reading this article and hearing about Pompey asking favours of other clubs to stay out of admin means its only a matter of time before one prem teams does go into admin.

It's balancing books time for football and the only way that can be achieved is by player wages going down to a realistic level. I'm sure behind the scenes owners of clubs are discussing how they make a capped wages system work.

Also Accrington Stanley have a £300,000 tax bill they have to pay in the next month otherwise they will go to the wall (again!) You would have thought they would have learned by now.

Instead of swapping the same bunch of highly paid failures between clubs, get a decent scouting system together & go find younger, hungrier players & when they get greedy sell them at a profit. Look at the players these teams sign & it's always the same faces. Michael fking Brown ffs, Kieran fking Dyer he's like the football equivalent of the 'Grim Reaper'.

[ronk]

It's balancing books time for football and the only way that can be achieved is by player wages going down to a realistic level. I'm sure behind the scenes owners of clubs are discussing how they make a capped wages system work.

Also Accrington Stanley have a £300,000 tax bill they have to pay in the next month otherwise they will go to the wall (again!) You would have thought they would have learned by now.

They are. They're the ones who'll lose millions, it's tricky because agents & players hold most of the cards at the moment and fans clamour for big names.

A lot of the promotion sides are being more sensible with money. Rather than desperately overspending they're just allowing themselves slip down if that's what it takes.

Stanley have learnt. So long as they're willing to go into administration every so often they will only pay a fraction of their taxes. Different rules for football clubs.

[Ted Hughes]

It's balancing books time for football and the only way that can be achieved is by player wages going down to a realistic level. I'm sure behind the scenes owners of clubs are discussing how they make a capped wages system work.

Also Accrington Stanley have a £300,000 tax bill they have to pay in the next month otherwise they will go to the wall (again!) You would have thought they would have learned by now.

They are. They're the ones who'll lose millions, it's tricky because agents & players hold most of the cards at the moment and fans clamour for big names.

A lot of the promotion sides are being more sensible with money. Rather than desperately overspending they're just allowing themselves slip down if that's what it takes.

Stanley have learnt. So long as they're willing to go into administration every so often they will only pay a fraction of their taxes. Different rules for football clubs.

If they were to bring in a wage capping system in the PL though, with the new tax rates etc, they'll be unable to compete with La Liga & maybe others for players even below the level of the top stars & the PL will lose some of it's appeal & therefore it's revenue. Turkeys voting for Christmas imo.

[ronk]

If they were to bring in a wage capping system in the PL though, with the new tax rates etc, they'll be unable to compete with La Liga & maybe others for players even below the level of the top stars & the PL will lose some of it's appeal & therefore it's revenue. Turkeys voting for Christmas imo.

Of course. It's not easy. That's why the focus at the moment is on getting spending limits for clubs participating in the CL. They can then introduce systems in the big national leagues. Having some stability will tend to incline towards lower costs. Recently, top salaries have been pushed higher by a small number of high profile cases where demand was acute and other players have followed suit in demanding similar salaries.

Where the real money problems are going to come is in the guys like Sturridge and Johnson. Already on huge money before they've done a lot. Contract extensions will imply pay increases so by the time these guys are peaking they'll expect huge salaries and already be very wealthy. As it stands clubs look like having to pay big salaries to young players who are still a risk (both Sturridge and Johnson have yet to demonstrate that they'll be able to consistently play the game due to injuries) or lose them to other clubs. The advantage of an academy is rapidly eroding unless you can make a few superstars and sell on most of the rest of the players.

At the same time the reason to spend so much for success is the later hope of actually making money. Arsenal are plugging along but imagine the position they'd have been if Chelsea (and the huge TV payments for clubs that can even stay in the prem) hadn't suddenly moved the goalposts.

[Ted Hughes]

If they were to bring in a wage capping system in the PL though, with the new tax rates etc, they'll be unable to compete with La Liga & maybe others for players even below the level of the top stars & the PL will lose some of it's appeal & therefore it's revenue. Turkeys voting for Christmas imo.

Of course. It's not easy. That's why the focus at the moment is on getting spending limits for clubs participating in the CL. They can then introduce systems in the big national leagues. Having some stability will tend to incline towards lower costs. Recently, top salaries have been pushed higher by a small number of high profile cases where demand was acute and other players have followed suit in demanding similar salaries.

Where the real money problems are going to come is in the guys like Sturridge and Johnson. Already on huge money before they've done a lot. Contract extensions will imply pay increases so by the time these guys are peaking they'll expect huge salaries and already be very wealthy. As it stands clubs look like having to pay big salaries to young players who are still a risk (both Sturridge and Johnson have yet to demonstrate that they'll be able to consistently play the game due to injuries) or lose them to other clubs. The advantage of an academy is rapidly eroding unless you can make a few superstars and sell on most of the rest of the players.

At the same time the reason to spend so much for success is the later hope of actually making money. Arsenal are plugging along but imagine the position they'd have been if Chelsea (and the huge TV payments for clubs that can even stay in the prem) hadn't suddenly moved the goalposts.

The whole thing just seems ridiculous to me. Bringing in legislation to stop businesses from from spending money & bankrupting themselves. Why ffs? Let them fucking go out of business if they're stupid enough to do it & then it'll all settle down. If the rags or Liverpool or AC Milan were to go into administration or whatever, they'll get bought up by someone with money anyhow because they'd be cheaper to buy & then they'd probably be run better. In the meantime, someone like Aston Villa may get their Chump's league spot which in turn would help them to. It would all even out in the end, just that the Sky4 won't have it all their own way.

[Crossie]

If we hadnt been taken over the 2nd time, we would have gone into adminitstation,

I reckon we were in the same situation pomey were. But we had a Billionaire owner (Frank) with no money! I think payments were due and there was no money left to pay them, which might be why Charlie went and Ireland was about to go.

Thank fuck money is no object now, and even if the Sheik dumps us off, we have massive assets in the form of players, which have already been paid for hopefully.

I think those 30 odd years of suffering are going to all be worth while over the next 10+ years.

[ronk]

The whole thing just seems ridiculous to me. Bringing in legislation to stop businesses from from spending money & bankrupting themselves. Why ffs? Let them fucking go out of business if they're stupid enough to do it & then it'll all settle down. If the rags or Liverpool or AC Milan were to go into administration or whatever, they'll get bought up by someone with money anyhow because they'd be cheaper to buy & then they'd probably be run better. In the meantime, someone like Aston Villa may get their Chump's league spot which in turn would help them to. It would all even out in the end, just that the Sky4 won't have it all their own way.

How about to protect football clubs, their employees, their stakeholders (mostly fans and the community) and their unsecured creditors (ticket holders, sponsors, TV companies etc.)? Also, to protect well run football clubs affected by others that are speculating.

If you have no attachment to a club and can buy it with limited liability debt then you only stand to lose as much as your original stake. Borrow, buy club, spend big (using borrowed money). If success: pocket big pile of cash. If failure: you only lost a small amount relative to what you stood to gain. If you were able to embezzle then you may have done okay anyway.

[Ted Hughes]

If we hadnt been taken over the 2nd time, we would have gone into adminitstation,

I reckon we were in the same situation pomey were. But we had a Billionaire owner (Frank) with no money! I think payments were due and there was no money left to pay them, which might be why Charlie went and Ireland was about to go.

Thank fuck money is no object now, and even if the Sheik dumps us off, we have massive assets in the form of players, which have already been paid for hopefully.

I think those 30 odd years of suffering are going to all be worth while over the next 10+ years.

That's right & we only got into that mess because we let Keegan squander a load of money on mostly crap. Newcastle brought him back to do it again! Poor quality managers being allowed to waste money on crap players is the main reason for the debt at most PL clubs. Fair enough, the yank factor has affected the scum & scousescum but even so they've driven up wages & transfer fees for years, even before Chelsea came along because it suited them to price everyone else out of the market when they were pretty much guaranteed more income from the lack of competition in the PL. Bollox to 'em.

[Ted Hughes]

The whole thing just seems ridiculous to me. Bringing in legislation to stop businesses from from spending money & bankrupting themselves. Why ffs? Let them fucking go out of business if they're stupid enough to do it & then it'll all settle down. If the rags or Liverpool or AC Milan were to go into administration or whatever, they'll get bought up by someone with money anyhow because they'd be cheaper to buy & then they'd probably be run better. In the meantime, someone like Aston Villa may get their Chump's league spot which in turn would help them to. It would all even out in the end, just that the Sky4 won't have it all their own way.

How about to protect football clubs, their employees, their stakeholders (mostly fans and the community) and their unsecured creditors (ticket holders, sponsors, TV companies etc.)? Also, to protect well run football clubs affected by others that are speculating.

If you have no attachment to a club and can buy it with limited liability debt then you only stand to lose as much as your original stake. Borrow, buy club, spend big (using borrowed money). If success: pocket big pile of cash. If failure: you only lost a small amount relative to what you stood to gain. If you were able to embezzle then you may have done okay anyway.

Why should they be protected any more than any other business? Do you think this would even be discussed if Utd, Liverpool etc weren't feeling the pinch? Funny how nothing was done when Leeds went under eh?

[Goaters 103]

There's a technical term for West Ham's financial predicament ... bolloxed.

Unless some major sugar daddy steps in it will get worse before it gets better. A shame really as the manager is a class act, and they have some decent supporters and a good tradition of trying to play good footy.

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

>>>Fair enough, the yank factor has affected the scum & scousescum but even so they've driven up wages & transfer fees for years, even before Chelsea came along because it suited them to price everyone else out of the market when they were pretty much guaranteed more income from the lack of competition in the PL. Bollox to 'em.

Very neatly summarised Ted.
Spot on.