iwasthere2012 wrote:I think, Beefy makes a lot of very valid points. Whether you agree with his analysis of who's fault it is, is up to our own subjective points of view.
What kind of gets to me, particularly after a run of results like the last week, is how polarised opinions seem on here and we seem to take our frustrations out on each other for not agreeing. But I find that if you take a step back at the arguments over quite a number of threads and look at them overall from a distance, then they all very much start to look the same.
By that, I don't only mean that each thread looks the same, but if you stand back quite often people who seem to be arguing against each other look to me like they are basically saying the same thing. Maybe it's me.
Like Beefy above, in essence, I believe we don't have the players to play at the very top level, at the system that seems to be preferred. However I don't see anything in what Ted says to contradict that. Ted seems to say that it's not the system it's the players and it doesn't work whether they play 3, 4 or 5 in midfield. I don't think that is contradictory to the first statement. In fact Ted is saying 'what were the board to do?' in answer to Beefy, which indicates to me that we are in agreement to what the problem is.
I say 'we' even though I haven't joined any of this until now, because as I stated after the Barca game and in another thread after the Liverpool game, everything I agree with and also disagree with has already been said...numerous times.
So who's fault is it all or what is the solution?
Looking across the board I optimistically, hope you are all right. Ted/Beefy/Twosips/Doug/WW/Sparticus etc. etc. There has been a lot of really positive stuff in here too. We all no that this year is a bit of a car crash, but going off Beefy's summation above, you would have to believe that if there is an overriding policy in this club, that has us in the situation we are in now, then it can only be part of a longer-term plan. There is no doubt this squad is ageing. Is this policy. We haven't seen much of youth coming through so far, this is true. Are we going to see a major shift over the coming years. I hope so. There is no doubt from EDS down to under 18's and beyond there seems to be real signs of a City way of playing. It makes sense to me that we have to believe that there will be a generation that will make it here. They are proving they can play this system at under age. Some of them have to step up next year.
Nothing I have seen in The Sheik's time here would suggest to me that they don't have a plan. As some suggest on here maybe this present bunch of players are nearing their end in the current plan, but I don't see this as a golden era over with them. I think the real golden era is yet to come.....and be sure of it, it will come.
iwasthere2012 wrote:I think, Beefy makes a lot of very valid points. Whether you agree with his analysis of who's fault it is, is up to our own subjective points of view.
What kind of gets to me, particularly after a run of results like the last week, is how polarised opinions seem on here and we seem to take our frustrations out on each other for not agreeing. But I find that if you take a step back at the arguments over quite a number of threads and look at them overall from a distance, then they all very much start to look the same.
By that, I don't only mean that each thread looks the same, but if you stand back quite often people who seem to be arguing against each other look to me like they are basically saying the same thing. Maybe it's me.
Like Beefy above, in essence, I believe we don't have the players to play at the very top level, at the system that seems to be preferred. However I don't see anything in what Ted says to contradict that. Ted seems to say that it's not the system it's the players and it doesn't work whether they play 3, 4 or 5 in midfield. I don't think that is contradictory to the first statement. In fact Ted is saying 'what were the board to do?' in answer to Beefy, which indicates to me that we are in agreement to what the problem is.
I say 'we' even though I haven't joined any of this until now, because as I stated after the Barca game and in another thread after the Liverpool game, everything I agree with and also disagree with has already been said...numerous times.
So who's fault is it all or what is the solution?
Looking across the board I optimistically, hope you are all right. Ted/Beefy/Twosips/Doug/WW/Sparticus etc. etc. There has been a lot of really positive stuff in here too. We all no that this year is a bit of a car crash, but going off Beefy's summation above, you would have to believe that if there is an overriding policy in this club, that has us in the situation we are in now, then it can only be part of a longer-term plan. There is no doubt this squad is ageing. Is this policy. We haven't seen much of youth coming through so far, this is true. Are we going to see a major shift over the coming years. I hope so. There is no doubt from EDS down to under 18's and beyond there seems to be real signs of a City way of playing. It makes sense to me that we have to believe that there will be a generation that will make it here. They are proving they can play this system at under age. Some of them have to step up next year.
Nothing I have seen in The Sheik's time here would suggest to me that they don't have a plan. As some suggest on here maybe this present bunch of players are nearing their end in the current plan, but I don't see this as a golden era over with them. I think the real golden era is yet to come.....and be sure of it, it will come.
Ted Hughes wrote:iwasthere2012 wrote:I think, Beefy makes a lot of very valid points. Whether you agree with his analysis of who's fault it is, is up to our own subjective points of view.
What kind of gets to me, particularly after a run of results like the last week, is how polarised opinions seem on here and we seem to take our frustrations out on each other for not agreeing. But I find that if you take a step back at the arguments over quite a number of threads and look at them overall from a distance, then they all very much start to look the same.
By that, I don't only mean that each thread looks the same, but if you stand back quite often people who seem to be arguing against each other look to me like they are basically saying the same thing. Maybe it's me.
Like Beefy above, in essence, I believe we don't have the players to play at the very top level, at the system that seems to be preferred. However I don't see anything in what Ted says to contradict that. Ted seems to say that it's not the system it's the players and it doesn't work whether they play 3, 4 or 5 in midfield. I don't think that is contradictory to the first statement. In fact Ted is saying 'what were the board to do?' in answer to Beefy, which indicates to me that we are in agreement to what the problem is.
I say 'we' even though I haven't joined any of this until now, because as I stated after the Barca game and in another thread after the Liverpool game, everything I agree with and also disagree with has already been said...numerous times.
So who's fault is it all or what is the solution?
Looking across the board I optimistically, hope you are all right. Ted/Beefy/Twosips/Doug/WW/Sparticus etc. etc. There has been a lot of really positive stuff in here too. We all no that this year is a bit of a car crash, but going off Beefy's summation above, you would have to believe that if there is an overriding policy in this club, that has us in the situation we are in now, then it can only be part of a longer-term plan. There is no doubt this squad is ageing. Is this policy. We haven't seen much of youth coming through so far, this is true. Are we going to see a major shift over the coming years. I hope so. There is no doubt from EDS down to under 18's and beyond there seems to be real signs of a City way of playing. It makes sense to me that we have to believe that there will be a generation that will make it here. They are proving they can play this system at under age. Some of them have to step up next year.
Nothing I have seen in The Sheik's time here would suggest to me that they don't have a plan. As some suggest on here maybe this present bunch of players are nearing their end in the current plan, but I don't see this as a golden era over with them. I think the real golden era is yet to come.....and be sure of it, it will come.
It seems to me he's saying that board are not providing the team we need in order to do the job. That's the bit I'm responding too.
I'm saying we are still in the process of finding out which team we need in order to do the job & that solving it needs time patience & persistence.
It's easy for someone to say, with hindsight, that Silva Nasri etc can't press in Liverpool's half for more than 5 mins. But I didn't think that was the case prior to that game & the Barca game.I thought the problem in the past was more down to people like Aguero & Dzeko, not working as hard as Messi, Muller etc do, & leaving the rest of the team overworked. Well I know that was a problem, because I saw it happen. I've also seen Yaya go missing & not do enough defensive work, in all systems from time to time, under two managers.
What Sunday in particular told me, was that you can have Dzeko & Aguero running their bollocks off every bit as much as Muller, Robben & Ribery do, but it still won't solve the problem of Yaya, Silva, Nasri. And even if you take off Dzeko, & replace him with a runner, it still doesn't solve it.
You lot may already have known that, but I didn't. I suspected it could be the case, but in the past, Aguero & Dzeko have sometimes strolled in such games, & therefore it's been impossible for me to judge the midfield.
They didn't stroll on Sunday. We were still unable to work hard enough to execute the game plan.
So we now know the choices imo. We settle for being Chelsea & keep it tight, hope our quality players do enough to win, hope we can mug our way to the Champions League final occasionally, or we continue to strive to play at the level of Real/Barca/Bayern & try to dominate games.
If we wish to play that way, then whoever we have as manager is probably going to need fitter, harder working alternatives to Yaya, Silva & Nasri.
Then we have Zabba etc to think about, but we may already have the solutions to that, at the club & not far off being ready.
Wonderwall wrote:iwasthere2012 wrote:I think, Beefy makes a lot of very valid points. Whether you agree with his analysis of who's fault it is, is up to our own subjective points of view.
What kind of gets to me, particularly after a run of results like the last week, is how polarised opinions seem on here and we seem to take our frustrations out on each other for not agreeing. But I find that if you take a step back at the arguments over quite a number of threads and look at them overall from a distance, then they all very much start to look the same.
By that, I don't only mean that each thread looks the same, but if you stand back quite often people who seem to be arguing against each other look to me like they are basically saying the same thing. Maybe it's me.
Like Beefy above, in essence, I believe we don't have the players to play at the very top level, at the system that seems to be preferred. However I don't see anything in what Ted says to contradict that. Ted seems to say that it's not the system it's the players and it doesn't work whether they play 3, 4 or 5 in midfield. I don't think that is contradictory to the first statement. In fact Ted is saying 'what were the board to do?' in answer to Beefy, which indicates to me that we are in agreement to what the problem is.
I say 'we' even though I haven't joined any of this until now, because as I stated after the Barca game and in another thread after the Liverpool game, everything I agree with and also disagree with has already been said...numerous times.
So who's fault is it all or what is the solution?
Looking across the board I optimistically, hope you are all right. Ted/Beefy/Twosips/Doug/WW/Sparticus etc. etc. There has been a lot of really positive stuff in here too. We all no that this year is a bit of a car crash, but going off Beefy's summation above, you would have to believe that if there is an overriding policy in this club, that has us in the situation we are in now, then it can only be part of a longer-term plan. There is no doubt this squad is ageing. Is this policy. We haven't seen much of youth coming through so far, this is true. Are we going to see a major shift over the coming years. I hope so. There is no doubt from EDS down to under 18's and beyond there seems to be real signs of a City way of playing. It makes sense to me that we have to believe that there will be a generation that will make it here. They are proving they can play this system at under age. Some of them have to step up next year.
Nothing I have seen in The Sheik's time here would suggest to me that they don't have a plan. As some suggest on here maybe this present bunch of players are nearing their end in the current plan, but I don't see this as a golden era over with them. I think the real golden era is yet to come.....and be sure of it, it will come.
You are so lucky that you were not here in the Mark Hughes Reign, it wasn't just polarised it was a fan divide and all out war!
iwasthere2012 wrote:Wonderwall wrote:iwasthere2012 wrote:I think, Beefy makes a lot of very valid points. Whether you agree with his analysis of who's fault it is, is up to our own subjective points of view.
What kind of gets to me, particularly after a run of results like the last week, is how polarised opinions seem on here and we seem to take our frustrations out on each other for not agreeing. But I find that if you take a step back at the arguments over quite a number of threads and look at them overall from a distance, then they all very much start to look the same.
By that, I don't only mean that each thread looks the same, but if you stand back quite often people who seem to be arguing against each other look to me like they are basically saying the same thing. Maybe it's me.
Like Beefy above, in essence, I believe we don't have the players to play at the very top level, at the system that seems to be preferred. However I don't see anything in what Ted says to contradict that. Ted seems to say that it's not the system it's the players and it doesn't work whether they play 3, 4 or 5 in midfield. I don't think that is contradictory to the first statement. In fact Ted is saying 'what were the board to do?' in answer to Beefy, which indicates to me that we are in agreement to what the problem is.
I say 'we' even though I haven't joined any of this until now, because as I stated after the Barca game and in another thread after the Liverpool game, everything I agree with and also disagree with has already been said...numerous times.
So who's fault is it all or what is the solution?
Looking across the board I optimistically, hope you are all right. Ted/Beefy/Twosips/Doug/WW/Sparticus etc. etc. There has been a lot of really positive stuff in here too. We all no that this year is a bit of a car crash, but going off Beefy's summation above, you would have to believe that if there is an overriding policy in this club, that has us in the situation we are in now, then it can only be part of a longer-term plan. There is no doubt this squad is ageing. Is this policy. We haven't seen much of youth coming through so far, this is true. Are we going to see a major shift over the coming years. I hope so. There is no doubt from EDS down to under 18's and beyond there seems to be real signs of a City way of playing. It makes sense to me that we have to believe that there will be a generation that will make it here. They are proving they can play this system at under age. Some of them have to step up next year.
Nothing I have seen in The Sheik's time here would suggest to me that they don't have a plan. As some suggest on here maybe this present bunch of players are nearing their end in the current plan, but I don't see this as a golden era over with them. I think the real golden era is yet to come.....and be sure of it, it will come.
You are so lucky that you were not here in the Mark Hughes Reign, it wasn't just polarised it was a fan divide and all out war!
I stayed away for a long long time, but I used to read it.
mr_nool wrote:HUGHES OUT!
Wonderwall wrote:mr_nool wrote:HUGHES OUT!
Dont you start, there was nothing wrong with our Leslie sparkytus
Ted Hughes wrote:We were supposed to sack half the team for winning the title ?
Or when Pellegrini came in, he was supposed to sack half of Mancini's players without even looking at them ? Then teach those players, plus the ones left from Mancini's team, how to play in a new style, knit it all together in a few weeks, and still win the title, with half a team full of new players, some of whom may never have played in the Premier League & half a team who have been drilled in a totally different style of play ?
All whilst being audited & potentially fined, for spending money ?
Not achieving this, is failure by ' the board ' ?
Hows about we evaluate the players out over a period of time, find out which ones are capable of improving in this style of play, discover which fall by the wayside, note where we are lacking, & try to fix it ?
Like when we discover they can't/won't run for more than 10% of a key game ?
I would say that's giving them the chance, & learning something.
City64 wrote:I still haven't got over Hull City and Middlesborough at home last month . Awesome viewing !
Ted Hughes wrote:Blue Since 76 wrote:Ted Hughes wrote:Blue Since 76 wrote:The world cup showed what happens when organised teams with loads of effort play. We look like Spain did, swanning about, thinking our superior football will get us through whilst being overrun.
Football has evolved and we've stood still with an aging and fairly pedestrian squad. That we were out fought and overrun by Arsenal should have set the alarm bells ringing and the scary thing is it's something most premier league teams could do to us if they see the weakness
If only happened to Spain because they played like City, rather than like Barca or Bayern Munich.
In the past they played with more energy.
Football has evolved yes. And it's evolved to where people like Pellegrini are trying to go, not to where people like fucking Souness and Carragher used to be.
Lest we forget, it was Barca who were running rings round us midweek & Bayern who were running rings round our 5 man midfield, with ten men.
If you lookup Nasri & Silva it says 'attacking midfielder'. If you look up Messi Neymar & Suarez it says 'forward'.
Barca plated v City's 4 man midfield, with 3.
They do as they are told & fucking leg it to get the ball back. Then they keep it.
The rest is dumbing down by Sky.
Not sure what Sky has to do with us being shit, Ted. And as for evolved to where Pellegrini wants to go, well maybe it has, but I'm not seeing any evidence of it. He's starting to look like a dinosaur and the team's lack of effort has to come from him.
Well for one, we aren't shit. We have had a few games where we have played shit. We may not quite be good enough to be Champions of England by the end of this season, or knock Barcelona out of the Champions League. But we certainly aren't shit.
And the reference to Sky is because it's Sky & other simplistic tv/media pundits who are dumbing down what Pellegrini is doing & using it as a reason for when we lose, but it's not the reason when we win.
Carragher even said how an 'English manager' would get more stick for playing 442, when no Engilsh manager plays anything like the way City play or ever has.
We have had two intelligent pundits in Bellamy & Martinez who have explained it as is & a bunch of fucking philistines adapting what City do, to suit ther own agenda & quite a few City fans using them as an example to prove how 442 isn't working when we don't even fucking play 442.
Ferguson used to play 442. We are absolutely nothing like that except when we play Milner & Navas out wide. We don't defend like that with 4 across the middle when we lose the ball.
Carragher stops the fucking play shows 5 City players stood in a circle of the pitch doing fuck all & says it down to 442. Is it bollocks. You don't play 442 like that. When Liverpool scored the 2nd goal, every cunt was back there with 5 in midfield. But the talk is of how 442 was the problem. It's fucking nonsense.
As for the workrate being less under Pellegrini. No it isn't.
Hazy2 wrote:City64 wrote:I still haven't got over Hull City and Middlesborough at home last month . Awesome viewing !
Ted can explain that.
Hazy2 wrote:City64 wrote:I still haven't got over Hull City and Middlesborough at home last month . Awesome viewing !
Ted can explain that.
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