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by Slim » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:40 pm
aaron bond wrote:It's taken a while but finally people are realising how fucking useless Nastasic is!!! No more moronic 'world class' comments I hope!
Him being beaten in the air by Oscar on Monday reminded me of when Walcott was beating him in the air against Arsenal last year. Pathetic defending.
Our best hope for a steady central defensive partnership in the remainder of the season is Kompany-Lescott, with Demichelis as support, then Richards/Boyata as further back-up.
Then we need to try and get a top class defender in early in the summer, preferably pre-World Cup so that they can begin training with the players in July, as opposed to mid- or end-August. And we need to get rid of Nastasic somehow...
Not saying it didn't happen, but if you are going to premise your point with the fact people were calling him "world class", could you please find me two posts that say he is.
Otherwise IMO, you are just tilting at windmills and that's a worse plague on here than overrating one of our own players.
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by Ted Hughes » Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:45 pm
carl_feedthegoat wrote:aaron bond wrote:It's taken a while but finally people are realising how fucking useless Nastasic is!!! No more moronic 'world class' comments I hope!
Him being beaten in the air by Oscar on Monday reminded me of when Walcott was beating him in the air against Arsenal last year. Pathetic defending.
Our best hope for a steady central defensive partnership in the remainder of the season is Kompany-Lescott, with Demichelis as support, then Richards/Boyata as further back-up.
Then we need to try and get a top class defender in early in the summer, preferably pre-World Cup so that they can begin training with the players in July, as opposed to mid- or end-August. And we need to get rid of Nastasic somehow...
Well its obvious to a blind cunt that Pellers wont use Lescott and doesn't rate him over Nasty no matter how many fuckups so stop banging on about it ffs.!!!
Nasty is shite and the penny dropped with me a while back but theres fuckall we can do about it but get through the season with Demi in the back 4 and hope we outscore the opposing team.
If we had signed a proper centre back rather than gambling on him & Savic, we may have won the title last year. Savic almost cost us the title the year before.
Imo, it's essential that when we do sign one, he is fast. Sturridge etc are showing why right now & Chelsea showed it on Monday. We need more athleticism in the whole squad if we are going to play the way Txiki/Pellegrini want us to, long term.
If Nasti or Savic had pace, their other flaws could have been worked around, but being slow and not very good in the air you have to be an exceptional reader of the game & know every trick in the book, in order to survive.
I hope the next bloke we sign is fast both on a sprint & on the turn.
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by Cocacolajojo1 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:17 pm
Demi won 3 aerial duels out of six. Nasty won 5 out of six. Yaya won fuck all in the air.
I have nothing to do so I looked at his last game which was at Swansea. 6 out of 6 aerial duels won.
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by Ted Hughes » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:02 pm
Cocacolajojo wrote:Demi won 3 aerial duels out of six. Nasty won 5 out of six. Yaya won fuck all in the air.
I have nothing to do so I looked at his last game which was at Swansea. 6 out of 6 aerial duels won.
Those kind of stats are meaningless, there is too much info missing.
Demichelis was going for really difficult headers where he was sometimes 2nd favourite v tough opponents & winning some of them whilst also stopping the opponent from getting a clean header from the ones he 'lost', whilst Nastasic watched him. If Nastasic did win 5 out of 6 headers, which I doubt, most that I saw him get were easy pretty much unchallenged & one he definitely lost was v Oscar.
Nastasic has an easy life, picking up loose balls & heading stuff in open space. When people really run at him or put in a strong aerial challenge, he fucks up regularly.
Usually his partner does most of the dirty work, hunting down opponents etc, whoever that is on the day & therefore his partner's stats may not be so good.
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by Im_Spartacus » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:35 pm
PrezIke wrote:
i can't really defend nasti these days but the continued use of pass % as a good statistic to defend some players and slag off on others has become quite silly, i think.
pass percentage does not account for the level of difficulty of the passes a player makes. this does not only not account for say how long the pass is, or if it was made between two or three defenders, but nor does it account for the situation a player is in when they receive the ball or when they set to pass the ball. those should ALL alter the level of difficulty of a pass, and be more indicative of a players skill with the ball at their feet than pass completion %.
we don't have those statistics.
if you want to compare pass % why is it that fernandinho's is 87% and silva is just over 88%.
are we suggesting they are worse passers than lescott?
of course not, but why?
because they tend to make more difficult passes, in traffic, after dribbling out of trouble, etc? because when they make a better pass that it has a better chance at leading to a scoring chance?
well, how about applying that logic to demi and nasti. for better or for worse, those players are ahead of lescott in part due to the above reasons. how many times have i heard one of the big plusses for us this season is "how quickly city turns defence into attack."
well, lescott is less likely to ensure that occurs. so as a result, i think, he sits despite attributes that make him a good defender because pellegrini's approach to managing the team values that slightly less than defenders who are more comfortable with the ball at their feet. lescott makes simple passes. great, he doesn't make many mistakes that way, but he also doesn't help create chances as much. this is his problem on this team. now, some more traditionalists will dislike this approach, and i get it, but it is not as clear as day that lescott is the better choice for the team and its approach.
i also believe we want to develop nasti, while we are moving on from lescott after the season, so pellers would also rather give nasti games, even if lescott may be rated a bit higher in defensive areas that are weaknesses we could use with strengthening on the pitch.
right now, however, nasti is not impressing too much, so he isn't teflon don or anything. he'll get a few more chances before lescott moves ahead of him, one would think.
But Nastasic doesn't spray the fucking ball 40 yards does he, that's exactly the point, he is a defender so when he passes, he passes to an available midfielder, he is not threading the ball straight through to a striker is he.
So on the basis at they make exactly the same type of pass, of course the statistic is relevant
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by MilnersJaw » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:47 pm
Im_Spartacus wrote:
But Nastasic doesn't spray the fucking ball 40 yards does he, that's exactly the point, he is a defender so when he passes, he passes to an available midfielder, he is not threading the ball straight through to a striker is he.
So on the basis at they make exactly the same type of pass, of course the statistic is relevant
Because lescott fails to pass to the available midfielder? Fucking useless statistic
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by Im_Spartacus » Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:52 pm
MilnersJaw wrote:
Because lescott fails to pass to the available midfielder? Fucking useless statistic
So they have equal pass completion statistics and make the same types of pass
Perhaps you can explain how you arrive at the conclusion that Lescott doesn't complete passes?
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by Slim » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:07 pm
Im_Spartacus wrote:MilnersJaw wrote:
Because lescott fails to pass to the available midfielder? Fucking useless statistic
So they have equal pass completion statistics and make the same types of pass
Perhaps you can explain how you arrive at the conclusion that Lescott doesn't complete passes?
BECAUSE HE SAYS SO, OKAY?
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by Im_Spartacus » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:11 pm
Slim wrote:
BECAUSE HE SAYS SO, OKAY?
Fair enough
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by Nige » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:15 pm
Most of nastasc's passes are when he's missed the forwards ball, already closed down and panicking. I'd suggest more than half are balls smashed to the goalie or the other centre half who is likely to be marked.
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by Nick » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:10 pm
after today i rate nasti higher than demich.
however lescott shits on both and its fact.
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by Ted Hughes » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:18 pm
Nick wrote:after today i rate nasti higher than demich.
however lescott shits on both and its fact.
I thought Demichelis did ok today. Vinny made more mistakes, as did Clichy & Zabba.
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by Cocacolajojo1 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:33 pm
Ted Hughes wrote:
Those kind of stats are meaningless, there is too much info missing.
Demichelis was going for really difficult headers where he was sometimes 2nd favourite v tough opponents & winning some of them whilst also stopping the opponent from getting a clean header from the ones he 'lost', whilst Nastasic watched him. If Nastasic did win 5 out of 6 headers, which I doubt, most that I saw him get were easy pretty much unchallenged & one he definitely lost was v Oscar.
Nastasic has an easy life, picking up loose balls & heading stuff in open space. When people really run at him or put in a strong aerial challenge, he fucks up regularly.
Usually his partner does most of the dirty work, hunting down opponents etc, whoever that is on the day & therefore his partner's stats may not be so good.
I agree that these stats are pretty meaningless but they show something, if true, and that is that he's not completely worthless nor shit in the air.
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by Ted Hughes » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:42 pm
Cocacolajojo wrote:Ted Hughes wrote:
Those kind of stats are meaningless, there is too much info missing.
Demichelis was going for really difficult headers where he was sometimes 2nd favourite v tough opponents & winning some of them whilst also stopping the opponent from getting a clean header from the ones he 'lost', whilst Nastasic watched him. If Nastasic did win 5 out of 6 headers, which I doubt, most that I saw him get were easy pretty much unchallenged & one he definitely lost was v Oscar.
Nastasic has an easy life, picking up loose balls & heading stuff in open space. When people really run at him or put in a strong aerial challenge, he fucks up regularly.
Usually his partner does most of the dirty work, hunting down opponents etc, whoever that is on the day & therefore his partner's stats may not be so good.
I agree that these stats are pretty meaningless but they show something, if true, and that is that he's not completely worthless nor shit in the air.
Not to me they don't, for the reasons given. For example; if Nastasic jumps for a header with a half decent striker making a proper challenge, I recon he will win 50% or less, maybe even 30%. I recon Lescott Vinny & even Demichelis in fact even Garcia, will be about 20, 30% better & if they do lose out, they will stop said player from getting in a decent contact most of the time.
Often Nastasic won't even challenge; just stand on his heels as the bloke jumps over him or arrive too late as they flick it over his head.
I will win 6 out of 6 if there's nobody near me.
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by bayblue » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:49 pm
Ted Hughes wrote: Not to me they don't, for the reasons given. For example; if Nastasic jumps for a header with a half decent striker making a proper challenge, I recon he will win 50% or less, maybe even 30%. I recon Lescott Vinny & even Demichelis in fact even Garcia, will be about 20, 30% better & if they do lose out, they will stop said player from getting in a decent contact most of the time. Often Nastasic won't even challenge; just stand on his heels as the bloke jumps over him or arrive too late as they flick it over his head. I will win 6 out of 6 if there's nobody near me.
Agree up to a point. In a one off game stats can be distorted due to the reasons given above. Over half a dozen games or more then all these things even out and so stats can be insightful.
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by Cocacolajojo1 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:49 pm
Ted Hughes wrote:
Not to me they don't, for the reasons given. For example; if Nastasic jumps for a header with a half decent striker making a proper challenge, I recon he will win 50% or less, maybe even 30%. I recon Lescott Vinny & even Demichelis in fact even Garcia, will be about 20, 30% better & if they do lose out, they will stop said player from getting in a decent contact most of the time.
Often Nastasic won't even challenge; just stand on his heels as the bloke jumps over him or arrive too late as they flick it over his head.
I will win 6 out of 6 if there's nobody near me.
If nobody is near you it ain't a duel.
Otherwise you make valid points.
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by zuricity » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:51 pm
Cocacolajojo wrote:
If nobody is near you it ain't a duel.
Otherwise you make valid points.
Pmsl.
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by Ted Hughes » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:53 pm
So
A) there is a seperate stat for unopposed headers then ?
and
B) Jumping for a header with Shaun Wright Phillips is the same as challenging Peter Crouch ?
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by Ted Hughes » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:00 pm
http://www.mcfc.co.uk/citytv/match-high ... highlights1:07
That's real life rather than stattoland
That's not on your stats as a duel, because the cunt didn't even try to challenge for the ball when his man jumped for it, just left it to others, who all get a stat against them because they challenged for it trying to do his job. That is typical.
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by MilnersJaw » Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:29 pm
Im_Spartacus wrote:
So they have equal pass completion statistics and make the same types of pass
Perhaps you can explain how you arrive at the conclusion that Lescott doesn't complete passes?
What you on about. I am saying its bollocks saying Nasti is better based on slightly better passing. Lescotts head can defend better than Nasti.
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