*** Official Germany v England Round of 16 thread ***

[Kiss_The_Goat]

Fair enough Ted, but substituting Capello for someone else cannot hide Englands shortcomings.

The point is that the shortcomings are caused by the manager. He picks the players and works out the tactics. I don't believe a competent manager would make the glaring errors as highlighted it Ted's thread above.

Yeh he picks the team but how different a team would 90% of the public have picked today? Some may have Johnson in here, some may have Dawson in but all in all that is Englands best team. How does that explain the mistakes on the pitch though? John Terry running 6 yards out of position for the first goal letting them in on goal directly from a goal kick? A goal kick?! You wouldnt even ever see that in Sunday league football?
How does it explain the numerous other appalling pieces of play that occurred. Mis-placed passes, players out of postion, not tracking back with purpose. How does it explain Rooney looking like a pub player the whole tournament, unable to even control a football.
I think some of the blame can be pointed at Capello for not being brave enough with his squad selection but what happened on the pitch throughout the whole tournament is down to the players and they were a disgrace! Its too easy to just blame the manager. In my opinion the problems come from the players mentality. They blow it when it counts, every single time.

[Kladze]

Fair enough Ted, but substituting Capello for someone else cannot hide Englands shortcomings.

The point is that the shortcomings are caused by the manager. He picks the players and works out the tactics. I don't believe a competent manager would make the glaring errors as highlighted it Ted's thread above.

Yeh he picks the team but how different a team would 90% of the public have picked today? /quote]

I'd say that 90% of the football loving public wouldn't have played 4-4-2 today ...... wouldn't have played Gerrard out wide ....... wouldn't have played Upson at all ........ wouldn't have forced Terry to his unnatural side ........

[patrickblue]

Fair enough Ted, but substituting Capello for someone else cannot hide Englands shortcomings.

The point is that the shortcomings are caused by the manager. He picks the players and works out the tactics. I don't believe a competent manager would make the glaring errors as highlighted it Ted's thread above.

Yeh he picks the team but how different a team would 90% of the public have picked today? Some may have Johnson in here, some may have Dawson in but all in all that is Englands best team. How does that explain the mistakes on the pitch though? John Terry running 6 yards out of position for the first goal letting them in on goal directly from a goal kick? A goal kick?! You wouldnt even ever see that in Sunday league football?
How does it explain the numerous other appalling pieces of play that occurred. Mis-placed passes, players out of postion, not tracking back with purpose. How does it explain Rooney looking like a pub player the whole tournament, unable to even control a football.
I think some of the blame can be pointed at Capello for not being brave enough with his squad selection but what happened on the pitch throughout the whole tournament is down to the players and they were a disgrace! Its too easy to just blame the manager. In my opinion the problems come from the players mentality. They blow it when it counts, every single time.

Not just blaming the manager, and I know where you're coming from, and agree the players were a disgrace, but the manager has overall responsibility. If the players aren't doing what he asks, he's not managing them. If they are doing what he asks, his tactics are not right. I don't believe they are doing what he asks so consistantly badly to fuck up his good tactical planning, but whatever is going on, he sure as hell isn't inspiring them. I sort of agree wiht you about his selection, but I'm sure as hell that no-one else would have taken Heskey, most would have taken Bent, most would have taken AJ over SWP, purely to balace the side. But the worst thing is that he would or could not see what was going wrong. Rooney should have been dropped after his first two abysmal performances, and Crouch and Defoe given the opportunity. I'm sorry but 2 goals down taking off your best goalscorer and putting on Heskey in (I assume this was his thinking) the hope that shrek would suddenly spring into life, strikes me as a refusal to admit he was wrong.
In fact as for blame, I think the whole media Rooney wankfest deserve as much as anyone for encouraging the team to be built around one player.

[Kiss_The_Goat]

Fair enough Ted, but substituting Capello for someone else cannot hide Englands shortcomings.

The point is that the shortcomings are caused by the manager. He picks the players and works out the tactics. I don't believe a competent manager would make the glaring errors as highlighted it Ted's thread above.

Yeh he picks the team but how different a team would 90% of the public have picked today? /quote]

I'd say that 90% of the football loving public wouldn't have played 4-4-2 today ...... wouldn't have played Gerrard out wide ....... wouldn't have played Upson at all ........ wouldn't have forced Terry to his unnatural side ........

Yeh right. All thats well and good in hindsight, but why has no-one had a problem with us playing like this for the last 6 or so years. Gerrard has played out there for England for years and for Liverpool every now and again, England have played 4-4-2 for years, and as for Terry, as a center back myself I'm sure he can cope playing left or right in the center of defence. Jesus, if I can, he can. These changes would have made no difference to todays result or performance.

[Colin the King]

While Capello's made some pretty baffling decisions, from squad selection tactics, there's no way he can be entirely to blame. Eriksson was one of the most highly rated coaches in the World when he joined the England setup, his reputation might have waned in the last couple of years but at that time, there's no doubt he was in his prime. McClaren, despite the pisstaking, has been hugely successful in his other jobs- who wins trophies with Middlesbrough ffs? And now Capello, one of the most decorated coaches around, ruined by the England curse. From all conquering genius to Sunday league buffoon in the blink of an eye.

As I see it the problem is rooted not in South Africa, but at home in England. All the way down to the backward coaching and facilities kids are brought up with. Their skills aren't honed, technique is very much second best to athleticism and physicality. At under-10, they look for the fastest kid and throw him up front. The one with a few extra pounds, centre half. B kicks it to A. And it carries through all the way to the World stage. Look around Europe, Holland is a great example. Their population is about 20% that of the UK and yet, they're as, if not more successful than England at these tournaments. The structure there breeds good footballers, intelligent footballers. Defenders who know how to pass a football. Until the entire mechanism of football coaching is torn up, shred to pieces and rewritten, these failures will keep happening.

Secondly, mentality is a huge factor. Delusions of grandeur equal disappointment, simple as that. The USA don't have huge expectations, and rightly so because at the moment, they have a pretty average squad of players. Yet, they topped the group ahead of England and have gone out (and not with a whimper either) at the same stage. On paper, it should be no contest. Jay deMerit vs. Wayne Rooney? Don't fucking tell me if that was Watford against the filth the outcome would be the same. Rooney and his mates have concentrated too much on the little voices in their thick skulls telling them they're god's gift to the footballing world. That feeble inferiors will fall at the very sight of their presence. Until the realisation hits them that they're not superstars, just men, nothing will change.

Germany aren't infinitely better footballers than England. But they've been educated, coached and motivated in a way that ensures their feet are firmly on the ground and that not one of them is superior to the other. They've won the World Cup three times compared to one for England- but the German people saw England very much as favourites. So there's a lesson- 1966 is fourty four fucking years ago. Let's base our expectations upon what's in front of us, and not what eleven great men did before many of us posting here were even born.

[Kiss_The_Goat]

While Capello's made some pretty baffling decisions, from squad selection tactics, there's no way he can be entirely to blame. Eriksson was one of the most highly rated coaches in the World when he joined the England setup, his reputation might have waned in the last couple of years but at that time, there's no doubt he was in his prime. McClaren, despite the pisstaking, has been hugely successful in his other jobs- who wins trophies with Middlesbrough ffs? And now Capello, one of the most decorated coaches around, ruined by the England curse. From all conquering genius to Sunday league buffoon in the blink of an eye.

As I see it the problem is rooted not in South Africa, but at home in England. All the way down to the backward coaching and facilities kids are brought up with. Their skills aren't honed, technique is very much second best to athleticism and physicality. At under-10, they look for the fastest kid and throw him up front. The one with a few extra pounds, centre half. B kicks it to A. And it carries through all the way to the World stage. Look around Europe, Holland is a great example. Their population is about 20% that of the UK and yet, they're as, if not more successful than England at these tournaments. The structure there breeds good footballers, intelligent footballers. Defenders who know how to pass a football. Until the entire mechanism of football coaching is torn up, shred to pieces and rewritten, these failures will keep happening.

Secondly, mentality is a huge factor. Delusions of grandeur equal disappointment, simple as that. The USA don't have huge expectations, and rightly so because at the moment, they have a pretty average squad of players. Yet, they topped the group ahead of England and have gone out (and not with a whimper either) at the same stage. On paper, it should be no contest. Jay deMerit vs. Wayne Rooney? Don't fucking tell me if that was Watford against the filth the outcome would be the same. Rooney and his mates have concentrated too much on the little voices in their thick skulls telling them they're god's gift to the footballing world. That feeble inferiors will fall at the very sight of their presence. Until the realisation hits them that they're not superstars, just men, nothing will change.

Germany aren't infinitely better footballers than England. But they've been educated, coached and motivated in a way that ensures their feet are firmly on the ground and that not one of them is superior to the other. They've won the World Cup three times compared to one for England- but the German people saw England very much as favourites. So there's a lesson- 1966 is fourty four fucking years ago. Let's base our expectations upon what's in front of us, and not what eleven great men did before many of us posting here were even born.

Top stuff! Totally agree.

[Crossie]

Watching Argentina vs Mexico showed a couple of huge differences between those 2 teams and England.

1) Argentina defended and won the ball back as a team, soon as they lost the ball, 9 men instantly behind the ball and always 1 or 2 pressuring and others cutting off the pass - result = mistake made, ball won back.

2) Break as a team, 5 players sometimes 6 moving forward into space, giving the man with the ball 3 or 4 clear options, one of them being Messi, the other Tevez.

3) Mexico were still running around with passion in the 92nd minute, when 3-1 down, showing passion, not bothering if they not playing in there favourite little positions. When the full time whistle went, they showed emotion, and looked phyiscally and mentall knackered.

With England, we give up after 75 mins, and go through the motions, the full time whistle goes and they all just swap shirts and walk off, no emotion, no passion, dont give a fuck.

Wanye rooney should have been told after the USA game that if he didnt buck up, he'd be off at half time vs Algeria. Same with Gerrard and Lampard.

We need to fuck all these premaddona over paid cunt face players. Lamps, Hesk, Terry, Rio, Gerrard, probably even Rooney, need to retire from internation football. We need to mold the next generation in a TEAM, understanding their roles and positions with a plan A B and C

But it wont happen, because i said mostly the same things after the last world cup, and we started this world cup with pretty much exactly the same team, same problems, and same performance. I didnt get my hopes up this WC, and wont for the next WC. Dont believe the hype, we should just be happy we got to the WC. We wont win it again.

[Original Dub]

I had a good think about it and I've one question:

Why can't Capello take take the blame. He picked them, was respnsible for the tactics, refused to change anything when it was clear it wasn't working, insisted on planning everything around shrek, and took off Defoe and stuck on that goalscoring sensation, Heskey.
Sorry, he was running the show, he takes the blame. The fact the players didn't appear the give a toss is a obvious sign of crap man management.
I'm sure everyone agrees that none of todays team play like that in club fooball, so it must be to do with how England are managed.

Dub, why have you cut and pasted my post. I posted it 5 times, is that not enough?

:)

[ant london]

It's So Easy To Fix When You Know How
The solutions to England's problems are clear-cut.

1. Get an English manager. Since it is clear that foreign managers are incapable of ever succeeding in alien environments (see Rehaggel with Greece for example). There is a surplus of world-class English managers who are proven winners, look at Phil Brown, look at Fat Sham and look at Megson.

2. We have such a 'talented group of players'.

Lampard is world class, look how he managed to break the record of most shots on goal in World Cup history without actually scoring. Some feat. Rooney is the best striker in the world (or is up there). The way he bamboozled those Algerian defenders by ensuring his second touch was a tackle each time was class. As for Stevie Me, he can 'turn it on' whenever he feels like it, someone remind him to flick the 'On' switch mind. Terry is a Leader, look at the manner he undermined the team in public and then was first to volunteer himself for 'Moron of the tournament' in the last 16.

3. The solution is to nationalise quality foreign players who have for some reason, not been given opportunities with their national squads. Top players like Almunia and Denilson could prove the difference for England in future.

4. Expel all foreigners from the UK and hang Arsene Wenger. He is personally responsible for immigration policy. A league full of Englishmen would undoubtedly lead to a higher quality of football, just look at the top-class players we had in the late 80s and early 90s like Carlton Palmer, John Fashanu, Keith Curle, Tony Daley etc.

Wenger clearly has a duty to improve English football and that means he should put a player's nationality before a player's quality.

When I look at someone like Silvestre for instance, could you suggest an English player of superior quality who could have come in and done a job? What's that you say? There's one kicking a ball in your local pub team?

5. Blame Capello. He was too harsh on our heroes. The luddite. He was too authoritarian with our superstars and actually expected a degree of professionalism. I think the players who flopped so spectacularly at basic elements of the game e.g. running, making 2-yard passes, committing tactical fouls etc ought to be consulted about the decision to sack Capello or not.

Capello was far too strict on them.

Sven on the other hand, was far too lax, which is no good either, we need more discipline.

McClaren was too chummy with the players and treated them as equals and this is clearly unacceptable.

So let's get Mourinho in who is...errr...a strict Disciplinarian.

Oh but hold on, we can't be too strict on our lads now, they need their iPods and their XBox in full working order.
Stewie Griffin

[ant london]

......

[ant london]

......

[lets all have a disco]

If only Ant could press the back button when he gets impatient with an error message.


The world would be a better place.

[aladdinblue]

While Capello's made some pretty baffling decisions, from squad selection tactics, there's no way he can be entirely to blame. Eriksson was one of the most highly rated coaches in the World when he joined the England setup, his reputation might have waned in the last couple of years but at that time, there's no doubt he was in his prime. McClaren, despite the pisstaking, has been hugely successful in his other jobs- who wins trophies with Middlesbrough ffs? And now Capello, one of the most decorated coaches around, ruined by the England curse. From all conquering genius to Sunday league buffoon in the blink of an eye.

As I see it the problem is rooted not in South Africa, but at home in England. All the way down to the backward coaching and facilities kids are brought up with. Their skills aren't honed, technique is very much second best to athleticism and physicality. At under-10, they look for the fastest kid and throw him up front. The one with a few extra pounds, centre half. B kicks it to A. And it carries through all the way to the World stage. Look around Europe, Holland is a great example. Their population is about 20% that of the UK and yet, they're as, if not more successful than England at these tournaments. The structure there breeds good footballers, intelligent footballers. Defenders who know how to pass a football. Until the entire mechanism of football coaching is torn up, shred to pieces and rewritten, these failures will keep happening.

Secondly, mentality is a huge factor. Delusions of grandeur equal disappointment, simple as that. The USA don't have huge expectations, and rightly so because at the moment, they have a pretty average squad of players. Yet, they topped the group ahead of England and have gone out (and not with a whimper either) at the same stage. On paper, it should be no contest. Jay deMerit vs. Wayne Rooney? Don't fucking tell me if that was Watford against the filth the outcome would be the same. Rooney and his mates have concentrated too much on the little voices in their thick skulls telling them they're god's gift to the footballing world. That feeble inferiors will fall at the very sight of their presence. Until the realisation hits them that they're not superstars, just men, nothing will change.

Germany aren't infinitely better footballers than England. But they've been educated, coached and motivated in a way that ensures their feet are firmly on the ground and that not one of them is superior to the other. They've won the World Cup three times compared to one for England- but the German people saw England very much as favourites. So there's a lesson- 1966 is fourty four fucking years ago. Let's base our expectations upon what's in front of us, and not what eleven great men did before many of us posting here were even born.

Top stuff! Totally agree.

I completely agree as well. But time and time again the media builds things up to a frenzy and then has a field day if the people they've spent so much time on don't perform as expected. They seem to do it with all our sports and sportsmen - the media build them up sky high and then do nothing but complain when the results don't come. I'm no great fan of Lampard, Gerrard or Rooney but the media has had a huge part to play in how the rest of the country has viewed them. Listening to SSN, the BBC and ITV (I don't read the papers) they've all talked like England were going to WIN the tournament right since the day we qualified. Anybody with half a brain could see that we weren't going to get anywhere near - the bar was set in the group stage and we only just managed to get out of that - but they kept on convincing themselves (and the rest of the country) that we were good enough to go all the way. If they ever get in the real world and stop kidding themselves I reckon THAT would be a good day to start putting our national team's problems right.

[aladdinblue]

While Capello's made some pretty baffling decisions, from squad selection tactics, there's no way he can be entirely to blame. Eriksson was one of the most highly rated coaches in the World when he joined the England setup, his reputation might have waned in the last couple of years but at that time, there's no doubt he was in his prime. McClaren, despite the pisstaking, has been hugely successful in his other jobs- who wins trophies with Middlesbrough ffs? And now Capello, one of the most decorated coaches around, ruined by the England curse. From all conquering genius to Sunday league buffoon in the blink of an eye.

As I see it the problem is rooted not in South Africa, but at home in England. All the way down to the backward coaching and facilities kids are brought up with. Their skills aren't honed, technique is very much second best to athleticism and physicality. At under-10, they look for the fastest kid and throw him up front. The one with a few extra pounds, centre half. B kicks it to A. And it carries through all the way to the World stage. Look around Europe, Holland is a great example. Their population is about 20% that of the UK and yet, they're as, if not more successful than England at these tournaments. The structure there breeds good footballers, intelligent footballers. Defenders who know how to pass a football. Until the entire mechanism of football coaching is torn up, shred to pieces and rewritten, these failures will keep happening.

Secondly, mentality is a huge factor. Delusions of grandeur equal disappointment, simple as that. The USA don't have huge expectations, and rightly so because at the moment, they have a pretty average squad of players. Yet, they topped the group ahead of England and have gone out (and not with a whimper either) at the same stage. On paper, it should be no contest. Jay deMerit vs. Wayne Rooney? Don't fucking tell me if that was Watford against the filth the outcome would be the same. Rooney and his mates have concentrated too much on the little voices in their thick skulls telling them they're god's gift to the footballing world. That feeble inferiors will fall at the very sight of their presence. Until the realisation hits them that they're not superstars, just men, nothing will change.

Germany aren't infinitely better footballers than England. But they've been educated, coached and motivated in a way that ensures their feet are firmly on the ground and that not one of them is superior to the other. They've won the World Cup three times compared to one for England- but the German people saw England very much as favourites. So there's a lesson- 1966 is fourty four fucking years ago. Let's base our expectations upon what's in front of us, and not what eleven great men did before many of us posting here were even born.

Top stuff! Totally agree.

I completely agree as well. But time and time again the media builds things up to a frenzy and then has a field day if the people they've spent so much time on don't perform as expected. They seem to do it with all our sports and sportsmen - the media build them up sky high and then do nothing but complain when the results don't come. I'm no great fan of Lampard, Gerrard or Rooney but the media has had a huge part to play in how the rest of the country has viewed them. Listening to SSN, the BBC and ITV (I don't read the papers) they've all talked like England were going to WIN the tournament right since the day we qualified. Anybody with half a brain could see that we weren't going to get anywhere near - the bar was set in the group stage and we only just managed to get out of that - but they kept on convincing themselves (and the rest of the country) that we were good enough to go all the way. If they ever get in the real world and stop kidding themselves I reckon THAT would be a good day to start putting our national team's problems right.

[aladdinblue]

Why are loads of posts getting duplicated?