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I believe this issue to be of sufficient seriousness that it fully derserves a thread of its own.

As a City fan of almost 62 years standing, my first reaction is to spring to the defence of the club I have cared about for so many years.
My second reaction is to consider that this issue is far bigger than tribalism and the evidence is what it is.

My next thought is that like Operation Yew Tree, it was only after the the first brave victims came forward and fought and won justice that others dared to follow. It was after those first cases that the weight of evidence exploded against many celebs,

My fear now is that as Bennell is sentenced, we may find this issue envelopes many clubs and many many more victims and becomes a far bigger issue than we could have ever imagined.

john68 wrote:As a City fan of almost 62 years standing, my first reaction is to spring to the defence of the club I have cared about for so many years.
My second reaction is to consider that this issue is far bigger than tribalism and the evidence is what it is.

My next thought is that like Operation Yew Tree, it was only after the the first brave victims came forward and fought and won justice that others dared to follow. It was after those first cases that the weight of evidence exploded against many celebs,

My fear now is that as Bennell is sentenced, we may find this issue envelopes many clubs and many many more victims and becomes a far bigger issue than we could have ever imagined.

This may sound very cynical, but I think child molestation has been VERY common up until recently when society finally opened up and started talking about it. It used to be too much of a taboo and a stigma for the victims, and if an "old perv" was caught at it, he would get taken around the back and given a good hiding (or sent to the Outer Hebrides or summat, if his employer had the chance).

I bet you would get the same result no matter what organisation is investigated (sport, religion, scouting, chess clubs, boarding schools), where children are under the tutelage of and dependent on adult males. Predators gravitate to these sort of professions and pastimes, and as I said above, until very recently it's something we all have been turning a blind eye to.

adult males

Females too, sadly.

s1ty m wrote:adult males

Females too, sadly.

Yes, but mainly male.

mr_nool wrote:

john68 wrote:As a City fan of almost 62 years standing, my first reaction is to spring to the defence of the club I have cared about for so many years.
My second reaction is to consider that this issue is far bigger than tribalism and the evidence is what it is.

My next thought is that like Operation Yew Tree, it was only after the the first brave victims came forward and fought and won justice that others dared to follow. It was after those first cases that the weight of evidence exploded against many celebs,

My fear now is that as Bennell is sentenced, we may find this issue envelopes many clubs and many many more victims and becomes a far bigger issue than we could have ever imagined.

This may sound very cynical, but I think child molestation has been VERY common up until recently when society finally opened up and started talking about it. It used to be too much of a taboo and a stigma for the victims, and if an "old perv" was caught at it, he would get taken around the back and given a good hiding (or sent to the Outer Hebrides or summat, if his employer had the chance).

I bet you would get the same result no matter what organisation is investigated (sport, religion, scouting, chess clubs, boarding schools), where children are under the tutelage of and dependent on adult males. Predators gravitate to these sort of professions and pastimes, and as I said above, until very recently it's something we all have been turning a blind eye to.

Good post, I think you are right.

Sections of the press will delight in giving our club negative publicity, and lawyers will see our wealthy owners as a huge source of finance for potential compensation.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the victims, but the club should look to properly highlight the likely enormous scale of the past problems across society, (as mr_nool has said).

Going forward the club should be looking to set the gold standard for safe child welfare in our society.

Perhaps we should help lead a football wide initiative to support those abused in the past, (both mentally and financially), and ensure the highest openness and safeguarding for children in football for the future.

Plain Speaking wrote:I have a great deal of sympathy for the victims, but the club should look to properly highlight the likely enormous scale of the past problems across society, (as mr_nool has said).

No. "Yes, we did it, but to be fair to us, so did loads of other clubs." The statement might be true, but with the greatest of respect, PS, that would be the last thing a victim would want to read, and would be jumped upon by anyone wishing to sling mud at the club.

Plain Speaking wrote:Going forward the club should be looking to set the gold standard for safe child welfare in our society.

Yes. Less talk, more action. Deeds not words. Get on with it with no fuss. In the way that a certain football manager we all know and respect works.

The extremely sad thing about this case is that like the Yew Tree case, it seems that many people knew what was going on but were content to say nothing. I believe that for City he was never directly employed as a member of staff, unlike Crewe where he was on the staff a youth coach. How that affects the culpability of the club I don't know.

frankswift wrote:

Plain Speaking wrote:I have a great deal of sympathy for the victims, but the club should look to properly highlight the likely enormous scale of the past problems across society, (as mr_nool has said).

No. "Yes, we did it, but to be fair to us, so did loads of other clubs." The statement might be true, but with the greatest of respect, PS, that would be the last thing a victim would want to read, and would be jumped upon by anyone wishing to sling mud at the club.

I think you may have misinterpreted my comment. It wasn't intended to excuse, or downplay our club's past actions or inactions, but simply to highlight the likely scale of the issue as a prelude to a proposed wide action plan, including supporting the victims.

I believe we need openness about the subject, not denial and sweeping things under the carpet, as has been done in many organisations in the past.

I think John and others are on the exact right lines, those were my exact thoughts John. Remember when the Celtic thing happened years ago and the "Big Jock Knew comments. Pervs gravitate to sports clubs, and it wont be just us and Crewe, but that doesnt absolve us.
I just hope a former favourite or respected club servant doesn't get named. It's not that important in the grand scheme of things, bit I don't want to lose a hero.
Finally some people must have known and turned a blind eye. And that's pretty shit too.

I believe that human behaviour has not changed over the centuries, sadly, and agree that it's only now 'society' is getting a grip.

However in my lifetime a nonce has always been a nonce and treated as such and I don't think there's as much 'blind eye turning' as is made out. Incredulity, non-belief, yes, over the years - but don't children often not dare to tell, in case they get in trouble? I think this is particulary true of the Catholic Church over the centuries. Until lately who would have believed a child against a respected churchman?

Furthermore one of the best dealing methods is to block an event out, put it in the past. And there is something to be said for that as the best way of dealing, But these people need to be dealt with, so well done to those with the courage to rake through their bad memories and put the monster belatedly where he belongs.

all his victims have joined together to do the right thing and it's took alot of courage for all them to finally speak out after years of torment seeking justice,for this situation to go to court and the piece of shit to get what he deserves and never see daylight for whatever time he's has left and be put behind bars for the rest of his life.his victims have to live with visions of what that bastard did to them for the rest of their lives so its only fair he should deserve the same.Benell life without the possibility of parole.God bless to all his victims.
one more thing i forgot..
ROT IN F***IN HELL FOR THE REST OF YOUR DAYS..BENELL

john@staustell wrote:I believe that human behaviour has not changed over the centuries, sadly, and agree that it's only now 'society' is getting a grip.

However in my lifetime a nonce has always been a nonce and treated as such and I don't think there's as much 'blind eye turning' as is made out. Incredulity, non-belief, yes, over the years - but don't children often not dare to tell, in case they get in trouble? I think this is particulary true of the Catholic Church over the centuries. Until lately who would have believed a child against a respected churchman?

Furthermore one of the best dealing methods is to block an event out, put it in the past. And there is something to be said for that as the best way of dealing, But these people need to be dealt with, so well done to those with the courage to rake through their bad memories and put the monster belatedly where he belongs.

Those are excellent points John.
I grew up up in a time when we were told 'A CHILD SHOULD BE SEEN BUT NOT HEARD'.
We were taught to respect our elders and those in authority. But with that also came a fear of those in authority or a fear of authority. Our parents, teachers, the police, our doctors, never made mistakes, they were always right and this was often brutally enforced by corporal punishment.

That in turn created a societal infrastructure where a 'DON'T ANSWER BACK' culture made it extremely difficult for a young child, to question authority or challenge those in authority over them.

Add to that in a football evironment where young children are 'sold the dream'. Two victims I havse heard both said quite clearly that they dreamt of being footballers, both felt that they could attain that dream and both feared that, that dream would be taken from them had they told the truth.

Yes Noolie, I do believe that this sort of abuse was far more widespread within society than we may, until quite recentl, have thought. Coupled with its adult version of bullying, in the workplace, by teachers, politicians, priests, the police and sadly even family members, it is certainly a societal problem that needs to be resolved.

I also believe that this must have been more widespread within football and hopefully now that the Bennell case has been resolved, other victims, as happened within the Operation Yew Tree case, will come forward.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/15/barry-bennell-abuse-manchester-city-crewe?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook

Here's an even better follow up article with a man who was abused while at City:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/15/barry-bennell-gary-cliffe-manchester-city

The City staff who joked around saying stuff like "Here comes Bennel's little bumboy" have a lot to answer for as well!

Its not good is it Erik? I can only see this getting worse.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:Its not good is it Erik? I can only see this getting worse.

Sorry mate, poor choice of words. It's a very well-written and gripping article. It gave me a better understanding on the horrors of being a victim of abuse than what the first, more general article did.

And yes, I think it will get a lot worse from a club perspective. T

mr_nool wrote:

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/15/barry-bennell-abuse-manchester-city-crewe?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Facebook

Here's an even better follow up article with a man who was abused while at City:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/15/barry-bennell-gary-cliffe-manchester-city

The City staff who joked around saying stuff like "Here comes Bennel's little bumboy" have a lot to answer for as well!

There are two types of criminals here: the perpetrators (sin of commission), and I hope as many of them as can be identified will be punished accordingly, and those who turned a blind eye (sin of omission). It is these latter ones, especially those who were in positions of authority at the time and able to stop the abuse but who chose, for whatever reason, not to, that need to pay as well. It sits uneasily with me that the current management of the club should be held responsible for what the previous managements did, or rather didn't do, so I would like anyone 'convicted' of turning a blind eye to be held responsible for paying the compensation to the victims (as well as the perpetrators having to pay as well of course).

There is something very wrong with the criminal justice system as well, but we all knew about that anyway.

1994 - Receives his first prison sentence, in the US, for offences against boys after being arrested there while on tour with Stone Dominoes
1998 - Admits 25 offences against six boys and gets nine-year sentence in the UK
2004 - Bennell released and takes new identity as Richard Jones
2015 - Gets further two-year sentence for offences against 12-year-old; serves half of it

Sentenced to 9 years, serves only about 6 years.
Sentenced again, but only to 2 years despite being a serial offender but only serves 1 year.

Frankly, people like this need to be put in solitary with food and water and nothing else and just forgotten about. No doubt when he gets his life sentence it will be at a prison with all mod cons and paid for by us.

Justified logic wrote:There is something very wrong with the criminal justice system as well, but we all knew about that anyway.

1994 - Receives his first prison sentence, in the US, for offences against boys after being arrested there while on tour with Stone Dominoes
1998 - Admits 25 offences against six boys and gets nine-year sentence in the UK
2004 - Bennell released and takes new identity as Richard Jones
2015 - Gets further two-year sentence for offences against 12-year-old; serves half of it

Sentenced to 9 years, serves only about 6 years.
Sentenced again, but only to 2 years despite being a serial offender but only serves 1 year.

Frankly, people like this need to be put in solitary with food and water and nothing else and just forgotten about. No doubt when he gets his life sentence it will be at a prison with all mod cons and paid for by us.

he’s a fucking piece of shit. as are those that turned a blind eye. the club’s reputation is meaningless in all this, all about justice for the victims for me and if that means that the city name is dragged through the mud then so be it. we all know that the club was an absolute shambles when all this was happening. it’s just unfortunate that the new blood have to pick up the pieces.