The mancityfans.net football forum

Over the years (decades actually now) I've seen numerous of posts discussing young players and expectations for them and on the other hand what improvementmis expected from older players. Lot of these discussions seem to fail to recognize key raw talent and on the other hand sometimes (younger) players are hailed for standing out but their attributes are kind that can be taught to any player. With more experienced players the learning is ongoing process (for those that posess the hunger to improve themselves) so certain things will keep improving throughout their playing career while others are more or less the same as they were when they were 16. Best players will play well into their 30's because while they will slowly but surely lose pace and functional strength they will replace them with other areas they have improved.

I'd roughly spread the attributes to three categories: Those that can be TAUGHT after the age of say 19. Those that can be IMPROVED. And finally things that at that age come so naturally that they CAN NOT be taught or much improved.

Things that CAN NOT be taught:
Raw pace (check further for functional pace)
Running with ball and dribbling (player can obviously learn new tricks but that's another thing.)
Passing technique
First touch (this is surprising to some but it really is something that comes from the backbone.)
Footedness
Determination (I probably shouldn't say this as youth coach but this is one thing I'm struggling to think whether it can be taught at all at any age. Some people seem to born with it and others not. No one will end up as professional footballer of any level without at least above average level determination compared to general population)
Spatial awareness and vision

Things that can be improved but not really taught:
Shooting technique
Functional pace and sprinting (running techniques and playing stance that help you sprint faster)
Agility
Decision making
Mental strength and composure (there are techniques to improve these but again people are born with different kind of temperaments)

Things that are very much teachable for young (and in some cases older) professional footballer:
Off the ball movement
Positioning (these two are pretty much cousins of each other. As long as you have the required spatial awreness the actually movement to right place can be taught. Besides different systems require different type of movement both off the ball in attack and positioning when defending)
Anticipation (see above two. This is just mental part of off the ball movement and positioning. You see improvement in tnis especially among some of the older guys)
Tackling (an art dorm for sure but it can be not only improved but also taught)
Heading (amazingly this is not as natural thing as passing or even shooting tehnique. This can be taught imo)
Crossing (this is very mechanical process as is heading. Repetition is needed though... see determination above)
Marking (both zonal and man marking)
Stamina
Strength (these two are very easy to "teach)
Versatility to play other positions
Taking set pieces of all sorts

This is by no mens definitive list but I've red lot of coaching manuals and tons of books about football coaches and even scouts. There seems to be general concensus among these though especially in the middle group there are differing opinnions (some for example consider decision making belonging to first group whereas others believe that it can be taught from the grounds up later on).

SO whenever I look at young player or player coming in and jusging how well management staff does with players I think about this list. When I see player like Sane who ticks all the boxes in first group and most in second I'm very excited. And then I see guys who are good at lot of stuff on last group but lack key elements from first two I'm more sceptical.

What makes this game so great though is that it has never been exact science. There are lot of exceptions to these rules. This is just a rough guide.

The player i have seen with the most raw talent at city ever has been Sane.

He has potential to be the worlds best player if coached correctly and he has the hunger, alternatively he could end up at Stoke with Shaikiri.

It is finely balanced for me.

Dubciteh wrote:The player i have seen with the most raw talent at city ever has been Sane.

He has potential to be the worlds best player if coached correctly and he has the hunger, alternatively he could end up at Stoke with Shaikiri.

It is finely balanced for me.

Sturridge is the player that's had the most raw talent 100%

Although I'm guessing you are alluding to it with the 'spacial awareness and vision', I'm surprised not to see, 'Instinct' mentioned under things that can't be taught.

I think it is hard, particularly for a forward, to get by in the modern game without pace, at least over a 5 metre sprint.
I look at that list and think that what Pep is looking for is Pace, First touch, Passing ability, Determination and Spacial awareness.
Add to that mental strength and composure/Decision making..........I think he would call it Intelligence.
From the last group you mention, I would say, versatility.

However take the likes of Iheanacho who I rate. I don't think he is particularly quick. I think his first touch is average at best but so is Sane and Sterling's.
I think we'll find out if he stays what his mental strength and determination is like. I feel Pep is a bit dubious about his football intelligence and versatility.
But, having seen him play in the academy and EDS, what stood out for me about him compared to his peers is that he has a strikers instinct better than most of the first team and certainly better than what he was playing against underage.
By striker's instinct I mean timing. Timing of attacking the six yard area getting in front of his man. This I don't think can be taught. It is something in the best strikers that comes naturally. He is not the kind of player that is going to play the kind of link up play that we saw from Aguero against WBA and which Pep is seemingly looking for.

I don't think the fluidity that Pep is looking for in our front three comes naturally to him the way it does with Jesus for example.
For me the most exciting prospect I've seen recently is Jesus. He has the attitude, the determination, the touch with both feet, he's not slow, he has the control. He has the decision making and intelligence. Watch the way he usually takes a strike early on whichever foot is furthest away from the defenders challenge, thus not letting the goalkeeper set himself. It's instinctive with him. He doesn't have to think about it.

Sane has so much raw talent, but still doesn't excite me as much as Jesus, if we are talking about expectations.

Mase wrote:

Dubciteh wrote:The player i have seen with the most raw talent at city ever has been Sane.

He has potential to be the worlds best player if coached correctly and he has the hunger, alternatively he could end up at Stoke with Shaikiri.

It is finely balanced for me.

Sturridge is the player that's had the most raw talent 100%

Its not a bad shout but i never thought Sturridge could be the best in the world at any stage, maybe the best in england but with Sane i just feel he has everything if coached right and has desire. Reminds me of a young Ronaldo.

Dubciteh wrote:The player i have seen with the most raw talent at city ever has been Sane.

He has potential to be the worlds best player if coached correctly and he has the hunger, alternatively he could end up at Stoke with Shaikiri.

It is finely balanced for me.

Agree 100%.
Sane is BY FAR the most NATURALLY talented player I've seen for us. Whether he fullfils his potential is whole another thing.

iwasthere2012 wrote:Although I'm guessing you are alluding to it with the 'spacial awareness and vision', I'm surprised not to see, 'Instinct' mentioned under things that can't be taught.

I think it is hard, particularly for a forward, to get by in the modern game without pace, at least over a 5 metre sprint.
I look at that list and think that what Pep is looking for is Pace, First touch, Passing ability, Determination and Spacial awareness.
Add to that mental strength and composure/Decision making..........I think he would call it Intelligence.
From the last group you mention, I would say, versatility.

However take the likes of Iheanacho who I rate. I don't think he is particularly quick. I think his first touch is average at best but so is Sane and Sterling's.
I think we'll find out if he stays what his mental strength and determination is like. I feel Pep is a bit dubious about his football intelligence and versatility.
But, having seen him play in the academy and EDS, what stood out for me about him compared to his peers is that he has a strikers instinct better than most of the first team and certainly better than what he was playing against underage.
By striker's instinct I mean timing. Timing of attacking the six yard area getting in front of his man. This I don't think can be taught. It is something in the best strikers that comes naturally. He is not the kind of player that is going to play the kind of link up play that we saw from Aguero against WBA and which Pep is seemingly looking for.

I don't think the fluidity that Pep is looking for in our front three comes naturally to him the way it does with Jesus for example.
For me the most exciting prospect I've seen recently is Jesus. He has the attitude, the determination, the touch with both feet, he's not slow, he has the control. He has the decision making and intelligence. Watch the way he usually takes a strike early on whichever foot is furthest away from the defenders challenge, thus not letting the goalkeeper set himself. It's instinctive with him. He doesn't have to think about it.

Sane has so much raw talent, but still doesn't excite me as much as Jesus, if we are talking about expectations.

I disagree with timing which is essentially off the ball movement. Thierry Henry for example told that he learned to time his runs by watching Ian Wright. I think you can learn to time your runs by training and learningnthe pace of game at higher level.

The problem with young strikers is that they have learned to time their runs by playing youth football where defenders are much slower. So when they make the very basic striker movement pattern, run diagonally in front of defensive line and then cutting to vertical run they end up offside or too wide towards flanks when receiving the ball. Especially latter is what is bothering Iheanacho. But it's very common problem among young strikers. Eeeezzzz normal as one great manager used to say.

One thing that I didn't list is the mythical striker instinct of being at the right place at the right time. I never had that instinct and could never figure out how they do it. Then again I had typical midfielder instinct of being able to put long passes eyes closed and could never quite explain it. That, to me, is the instinct you are talking about. It definitely can't be coached later on and it's very hard for even top professional youth coaches to explain where it comes from. I suppose some just develope that "feel" for the game but you can already recognize that fwel or instinct by the time boy is about 12 or 13.

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

iwasthere2012 wrote:Although I'm guessing you are alluding to it with the 'spacial awareness and vision', I'm surprised not to see, 'Instinct' mentioned under things that can't be taught.

I think it is hard, particularly for a forward, to get by in the modern game without pace, at least over a 5 metre sprint.
I look at that list and think that what Pep is looking for is Pace, First touch, Passing ability, Determination and Spacial awareness.
Add to that mental strength and composure/Decision making..........I think he would call it Intelligence.
From the last group you mention, I would say, versatility.

However take the likes of Iheanacho who I rate. I don't think he is particularly quick. I think his first touch is average at best but so is Sane and Sterling's.
I think we'll find out if he stays what his mental strength and determination is like. I feel Pep is a bit dubious about his football intelligence and versatility.
But, having seen him play in the academy and EDS, what stood out for me about him compared to his peers is that he has a strikers instinct better than most of the first team and certainly better than what he was playing against underage.
By striker's instinct I mean timing. Timing of attacking the six yard area getting in front of his man. This I don't think can be taught. It is something in the best strikers that comes naturally. He is not the kind of player that is going to play the kind of link up play that we saw from Aguero against WBA and which Pep is seemingly looking for.

I don't think the fluidity that Pep is looking for in our front three comes naturally to him the way it does with Jesus for example.
For me the most exciting prospect I've seen recently is Jesus. He has the attitude, the determination, the touch with both feet, he's not slow, he has the control. He has the decision making and intelligence. Watch the way he usually takes a strike early on whichever foot is furthest away from the defenders challenge, thus not letting the goalkeeper set himself. It's instinctive with him. He doesn't have to think about it.

Sane has so much raw talent, but still doesn't excite me as much as Jesus, if we are talking about expectations.

I disagree with timing which is essentially off the ball movement. Thierry Henry for example told that he learned to time his runs by watching Ian Wright. I think you can learn to time your runs by training and learningnthe pace of game at higher level.

The problem with young strikers is that they have learned to time their runs by playing youth football where defenders are much slower. So when they make the very basic striker movement pattern, run diagonally in front of defensive line and then cutting to vertical run they end up offside or too wide towards flanks when receiving the ball. Especially latter is what is bothering Iheanacho. But it's very common problem among young strikers. Eeeezzzz normal as one great manager used to say.

One thing that I didn't list is the mythical striker instinct of being at the right place at the right time. I never had that instinct and could never figure out how they do it. Then again I had typical midfielder instinct of being able to put long passes eyes closed and could never quite explain it. That, to me, is the instinct you are talking about. It definitely can't be coached later on and it's very hard for even top professional youth coaches to explain where it comes from. I suppose some just develope that "feel" for the game but you can already recognize that fwel or instinct by the time boy is about 12 or 13.

Kind of what I'm talking about and kind of not.
I take what you are saying about timing, but I purposely used the word 'Forwards' rather than striker, at that point.
When talking about Nacho, I see him instinctively as an out and out 'striker'. I think this arriving at the right point and time is the part that comes naturally to some. It is essentially what their game is. I think Nacho has this and would score bucket loads in any team if played that way. That's the kind of timing I refer to. It's the arrival in the six yard area just at the right time for a breaking ball.

Sergio is a wonderful striker and his all around game is much better. This is beyond dispute, but there are times that I am crying at the tv screen, 'get to the near post'. 'In front of your man', 'stop hiding behind the defender'.
I think he has made a concerted effort recently to do this, but with Nacho it is just something he is born with.(IMO) In saying this, I am in no way advocating playing Nacho ahead of Kun. Let's be sensible!

Looking at Sane, I see all this raw talent and you are correct he can be taught timing. Experience will just make him better and better.
Looking at Jesus and I see a guy who already has this instinct around the box. Some people can just sniff a goal from any situation.It's anticipation, concentration and reaction all rolled into one. Instinct. And he has it.
He also has so much more raw ingredients to become a world class attacking midfielder/player.

One bugbear of mine is to see so many one-footed players in our squad. Particularly forwards. I don't expect them to be equally as good on their weaker foot at everything. They should be able to cross a ball or shoot with either foot. Jesus looks comfortable to take a chance on whatever side it comes to him. He has the confidence not to have to turn back onto his stronger foot. This is something that I think takes practice and hard work preferably from an early age and he looks like he works on it. They all should work on it.(maybe they do)

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

Dubciteh wrote:The player i have seen with the most raw talent at city ever has been Sane.

He has potential to be the worlds best player if coached correctly and he has the hunger, alternatively he could end up at Stoke with Shaikiri.

It is finely balanced for me.

Agree 100%.
Sane is BY FAR the most NATURALLY talented player I've seen for us. Whether he fullfils his potential is whole another thing.

You think he has by far more natural ability than Silva?

Mase wrote:

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

Dubciteh wrote:The player i have seen with the most raw talent at city ever has been Sane.

He has potential to be the worlds best player if coached correctly and he has the hunger, alternatively he could end up at Stoke with Shaikiri.

It is finely balanced for me.

Agree 100%.
Sane is BY FAR the most NATURALLY talented player I've seen for us. Whether he fullfils his potential is whole another thing.

You think he has by far more natural ability than Silva?

If that one is being put to the floor.........No.

iwasthere2012 wrote:

Mase wrote:

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

Dubciteh wrote:The player i have seen with the most raw talent at city ever has been Sane.

He has potential to be the worlds best player if coached correctly and he has the hunger, alternatively he could end up at Stoke with Shaikiri.

It is finely balanced for me.

Agree 100%.
Sane is BY FAR the most NATURALLY talented player I've seen for us. Whether he fullfils his potential is whole another thing.

You think he has by far more natural ability than Silva?

If that one is being put to the floor.........No.

ali b, robinho...

Nigels Tackle wrote:

iwasthere2012 wrote:

Mase wrote:

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

Dubciteh wrote:The player i have seen with the most raw talent at city ever has been Sane.

He has potential to be the worlds best player if coached correctly and he has the hunger, alternatively he could end up at Stoke with Shaikiri.

It is finely balanced for me.

Agree 100%.
Sane is BY FAR the most NATURALLY talented player I've seen for us. Whether he fullfils his potential is whole another thing.

You think he has by far more natural ability than Silva?

If that one is being put to the floor.........No.

ali b, robinho...

You can't teach the ability those players had. That's what natural ability is.

sane's strength and balance are at least as good as tranny's at the same age.

I think Jesus runs him close for natural ability too.

I think people don't understand what natural ability is.

Running, dribbling that is taught. Sanè is brilliant at that.
The vision Silva, Ali B, someone like Messi have is natural. You can't teach that.

iwasthere2012 wrote:

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

iwasthere2012 wrote:Although I'm guessing you are alluding to it with the 'spacial awareness and vision', I'm surprised not to see, 'Instinct' mentioned under things that can't be taught.

I think it is hard, particularly for a forward, to get by in the modern game without pace, at least over a 5 metre sprint.
I look at that list and think that what Pep is looking for is Pace, First touch, Passing ability, Determination and Spacial awareness.
Add to that mental strength and composure/Decision making..........I think he would call it Intelligence.
From the last group you mention, I would say, versatility.

However take the likes of Iheanacho who I rate. I don't think he is particularly quick. I think his first touch is average at best but so is Sane and Sterling's.
I think we'll find out if he stays what his mental strength and determination is like. I feel Pep is a bit dubious about his football intelligence and versatility.
But, having seen him play in the academy and EDS, what stood out for me about him compared to his peers is that he has a strikers instinct better than most of the first team and certainly better than what he was playing against underage.
By striker's instinct I mean timing. Timing of attacking the six yard area getting in front of his man. This I don't think can be taught. It is something in the best strikers that comes naturally. He is not the kind of player that is going to play the kind of link up play that we saw from Aguero against WBA and which Pep is seemingly looking for.

I don't think the fluidity that Pep is looking for in our front three comes naturally to him the way it does with Jesus for example.
For me the most exciting prospect I've seen recently is Jesus. He has the attitude, the determination, the touch with both feet, he's not slow, he has the control. He has the decision making and intelligence. Watch the way he usually takes a strike early on whichever foot is furthest away from the defenders challenge, thus not letting the goalkeeper set himself. It's instinctive with him. He doesn't have to think about it.

Sane has so much raw talent, but still doesn't excite me as much as Jesus, if we are talking about expectations.

I disagree with timing which is essentially off the ball movement. Thierry Henry for example told that he learned to time his runs by watching Ian Wright. I think you can learn to time your runs by training and learningnthe pace of game at higher level.

The problem with young strikers is that they have learned to time their runs by playing youth football where defenders are much slower. So when they make the very basic striker movement pattern, run diagonally in front of defensive line and then cutting to vertical run they end up offside or too wide towards flanks when receiving the ball. Especially latter is what is bothering Iheanacho. But it's very common problem among young strikers. Eeeezzzz normal as one great manager used to say.

One thing that I didn't list is the mythical striker instinct of being at the right place at the right time. I never had that instinct and could never figure out how they do it. Then again I had typical midfielder instinct of being able to put long passes eyes closed and could never quite explain it. That, to me, is the instinct you are talking about. It definitely can't be coached later on and it's very hard for even top professional youth coaches to explain where it comes from. I suppose some just develope that "feel" for the game but you can already recognize that fwel or instinct by the time boy is about 12 or 13.

Kind of what I'm talking about and kind of not.
I take what you are saying about timing, but I purposely used the word 'Forwards' rather than striker, at that point.
When talking about Nacho, I see him instinctively as an out and out 'striker'. I think this arriving at the right point and time is the part that comes naturally to some. It is essentially what their game is. I think Nacho has this and would score bucket loads in any team if played that way. That's the kind of timing I refer to. It's the arrival in the six yard area just at the right time for a breaking ball.

Sergio is a wonderful striker and his all around game is much better. This is beyond dispute, but there are times that I am crying at the tv screen, 'get to the near post'. 'In front of your man', 'stop hiding behind the defender'.
I think he has made a concerted effort recently to do this, but with Nacho it is just something he is born with.(IMO) In saying this, I am in no way advocating playing Nacho ahead of Kun. Let's be sensible!

Looking at Sane, I see all this raw talent and you are correct he can be taught timing. Experience will just make him better and better.
Looking at Jesus and I see a guy who already has this instinct around the box. Some people can just sniff a goal from any situation.It's anticipation, concentration and reaction all rolled into one. Instinct. And he has it.
He also has so much more raw ingredients to become a world class attacking midfielder/player.

One bugbear of mine is to see so many one-footed players in our squad. Particularly forwards. I don't expect them to be equally as good on their weaker foot at everything. They should be able to cross a ball or shoot with either foot. Jesus looks comfortable to take a chance on whatever side it comes to him. He has the confidence not to have to turn back onto his stronger foot. This is something that I think takes practice and hard work preferably from an early age and he looks like he works on it. They all should work on it.(maybe they do)

One footed players is a huge bugbear of mine. For truly gifted players like Messi or Silva for example you can forgive it a little. But there are still times when Silva cuts back to the left when going on the right would open play up a bit more. However for most footballers the ability to use both feet, for me, is a must.

Years ago Tom Finney used to practise kicking a ball against a wall with a boot on his then weaker foot and a slipper on his stronger foot until he was adept and equally as strong with either foot. He did this until he could take corners with either foot from either side. Imagine a corner taken with Silva's right foot!! This is something EVERY player can improve on.

As a slight aside, though it is something that can be taught to any player of any age, the ability to beat the first man on a cross should be paramount, especially on a dead ball. For me, a professional footballer who continually fails to beat the first man on a corner or free kick should not be taking those dead ball situations

Mase wrote:I think people don't understand what natural ability is.

Running, dribbling that is taught. Sanè is brilliant at that.
The vision Silva, Ali B, someone like Messi have is natural. You can't teach that.

Natural finishing is natural.

Dameerto wrote:

Mase wrote:I think people don't understand what natural ability is.

Running, dribbling that is taught. Sanè is brilliant at that.
The vision Silva, Ali B, someone like Messi have is natural. You can't teach that.

Natural finishing is natural.

Not if you're on steds mate.

Mase wrote:I think people don't understand what natural ability is.

Running, dribbling that is taught. Sanè is brilliant at that.
The vision Silva, Ali B, someone like Messi have is natural. You can't teach that.

Running with the ball and dribbling WAS taught to him at one time early on as a kid. You can't improve either skill much at all for a grown up player. Sure you can teach how to time runs and when to dribble but the actual raw skill is what it is.

Niall Quinns Discopants wrote:

Mase wrote:I think people don't understand what natural ability is.

Running, dribbling that is taught. Sanè is brilliant at that.
The vision Silva, Ali B, someone like Messi have is natural. You can't teach that.

Running with the ball and dribbling WAS taught to him at one time early on as a kid. You can't improve either skill much at all for a grown up player. Sure you can teach how to time runs and when to dribble but the actual raw skill is what it is.

You've just said it was taught to him as a kid. If no one had taught him, and he hadn't practiced he wouldn't be good at it. No one taught Silva to have 500 eyes on every one of his team mates at any given moment.