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john68 wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:Not to excuse but just to put a bit of perspective on things in regards recruitment, we had to rein in our wage bill since the Cook days, what we were doing during his tenure wasn't sustainable long term.

Also, someone who's name never gets thrown into the mix when our recruitment is being analysed/criticised is Gary Worthington, as our head of scouting surely he must shoulder some of the blame for our failures in this area.

I would only partly agree with that FIB, If you look at the combined fees and wages of some of the players we have bought, we would undoubtedly have been better served spending higher on fewer quality players that would have improved the squad and not wasting so much on many poorer players.

Absolutely. I would even argue that it would have been wiser to go for cheaper (fee and wages, think real bargain bin) stop-gap signings, i.e. F. Fernandez or Fazio type defenders. Firstly, they would obviously be cheaper, on lower wages, easier to ship out eventually and couldn't possibly have performed any worse. Secondly, it could be turned into anti-UEFA publicity, showing everyone how we are actually being affected by FFP, instead of spending a world-record fee for a defender (or thereabouts), dodgy 3rd party shenanigans included.

I see the summer 2015 as a turning point, obviously showing real intent with a superstar signings in KDB, but I rate Sterling as another very good signing and while Otamendi gets a lot of justified shit and I question whether he has any defensive nous sometimes, there are many many worse defenders in the Premier League who are not as exposed as him and look better only because they play in solid, conservative set-ups. Anyone who watched WHU v LIV yesterday, please explain to me what the fuck José Fonte, a European Champion of last year, was doing for Sturridge's goal. Delph is just making up the numbers, and were it not for his woeful injury record, I'd see him as a solid signing as well.

why are we ignoring the signings of sane and jesus??

The problem with the new squad theory is that we have spanked hundreds of millions without managing to match Vincent, Silva, Yaya and Hart's ability. We are still miles away from replacing them adequately.
Yes Sane and Jesus look promising, but Nolito, Stones and Gundogan are bang average. I don't have any real belief that next year will be better, it might be, it might not.
And we all knew over twelve months ago that our full back positions were fucked, but nobody, (and that means Pep too) bothered their arse to address it.
In the meantime our defence was iffy, replacement keeper the worst I've ever seen (and yes I mean in forty three years) and the attack was often powder puff. Add in that Yaya and Silva are going to get less effective rather than more and every department needs to improve. Has Pep shown us he is the man to achieve this? Not really.
Next season could be great, but it could just as easily not be. My optimism does not match John's by any stretch.
Then again, Vinny could stay fit, a decent keeper arrives and we buy two pacy competent full backs.
It's 50/50 for me.

The problem with the new squad theory is that we have spunked hundreds of millions without managing to match Vincent, Silva, Yaya and Hart's ability. We are still miles away from replacing them adequately.
Yes Sane and Jesus look promising, but Nolito, Stones and Gundogan are bang average. I don't have any real belief that next year will be better, it might be, it might not.
And we all knew over twelve months ago that our full back positions were fucked, but nobody, (and that means Pep too) bothered their arse to address it.
In the meantime our defence was iffy, replacement keeper the worst I've ever seen (and yes I mean in forty three years) and the attack was often powder puff. Add in that Yaya and Silva are going to get less effective rather than more, and every department needs to improve. Has Pep shown us he is the man to achieve this? Not really.
Next season could be great, but it could just as easily not be. My optimism does not match John's by any stretch.
Then again, Vinny could stay fit, a decent keeper arrives and we buy two pacy competent full backs.
It's 50/50 for me.

On the Mega plus side, Pep doesn't fuck about with two/three defensive midfielders. For that I'm eternally grateful.

John, comin fra Yorksha ah dooant understan' enny o' wha' theur wrote. are theur askin if wea'ar 'eear fert long or shoarts term? am 'eear shoarts term anx o' we dooant win six world cups 'n t' champions league int' next twoa years then ah'm art o' 'eear!.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote:The problem with the new squad theory is that we have spunked hundreds of millions without managing to match Vincent, Silva, Yaya and Hart's ability. We are still miles away from replacing them adequately.
Yes Sane and Jesus look promising, but Nolito, Stones and Gundogan are bang average. I don't have any real belief that next year will be better, it might be, it might not.
And we all knew over twelve months ago that our full back positions were fucked, but nobody, (and that means Pep too) bothered their arse to address it.
In the meantime our defence was iffy, replacement keeper the worst I've ever seen (and yes I mean in forty three years) and the attack was often powder puff. Add in that Yaya and Silva are going to get less effective rather than more, and every department needs to improve. Has Pep shown us he is the man to achieve this? Not really.
Next season could be great, but it could just as easily not be. My optimism does not match John's by any stretch.
Then again, Vinny could stay fit, a decent keeper arrives and we buy two pacy competent full backs.
It's 50/50 for me.

On the Mega plus side, Pep doesn't fuck about with two/three defensive midfielders. For that I'm eternally grateful.

for me, bringing in KDB, sane and jesus makes up for nearly all of the missteps. these are 3 players who could walk into any side in world football, and it was no small feat bringing them to manchester. if we land one or 2 more like that, we will have an amazing nucleus to build around.

Ginger Kev has shown many times he can't control a midfield. That leaves Silva and Yaya sized holes to fill. And soon.

in the very short term this scenario would be a shaker

johnny crossan wrote:in the very short term this scenario would be a shaker

I'd put the house on those results not happening that way to be honest

It's really strange isn't it that for all the hype with the Spafia , it is Italian managers, Portuguese, Chilean, non Spanish (waiters ) that keep winning the league.

zuricity wrote:It's really strange isn't it that for all the hype with the Spafia , it is Italian managers, Portuguese, Chilean, non Spanish (waiters ) that keep winning the league.

You omitted French Managers from that list Zurich, .............oh, hang on

Sideshow Bob wrote:why are we ignoring the signings of sane and jesus??

I wasn't doing so Bob, It was an analysis of how our squad had stagnated up til Guardiola arrived, to point out the depth of overhaul necessary to bring us back up to scratch.
Gundogan, Jesus, Sane are most definitely part of that overhaul Mate. Maybe even Nolito.

zuricity wrote:It's really strange isn't it that for all the hype with the Spafia , it is Italian managers, Portuguese, Chilean, non Spanish (waiters :P ) that keep winning the league.

That's a fair observation Zurich. My doubts about the Spafia lie more in whether Txiki can deliver what is wanted by Pep.
His record up to now hasn't been that great. Zuculini, Jovetic, Mangala to name a few. Apart from KDB and Sterling, the others brought in haven't been of the required standard necessary to challenge for the CL, and apparently, that is our owner's aim.

Like it or lump it,we have the Spafia and wehave to live with it.

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote: The problem with the new squad theory is that we have spanked hundreds of millions without managing to match Vincent, Silva, Yaya and Hart's ability. We are still miles away from replacing them adequately.
Yes Sane and Jesus look promising, but Nolito, Stones and Gundogan are bang average. I don't have any real belief that next year will be better, it might be, it might not.
And we all knew over twelve months ago that our full back positions were fucked, but nobody, (and that means Pep too) bothered their arse to address it.
In the meantime our defence was iffy, replacement keeper the worst I've ever seen (and yes I mean in forty three years) and the attack was often powder puff. Add in that Yaya and Silva are going to get less effective rather than more and every department needs to improve. Has Pep shown us he is the man to achieve this? Not really.
Next season could be great, but it could just as easily not be. My optimism does not match John's by any stretch.
Then again, Vinny could stay fit, a decent keeper arrives and we buy two pacy competent full backs.
It's 50/50 for me.

New squad, theory or not, is sadly a reality that has to be dealt with. The fact that it wasn't addressed and the squad strengthened properly after Mancini won the League is part of the stagnation that has left us with a necessary revolution, rather than an evolution. Marwood and Txiki stand in the firing line? Or was t under instruction from the owners? We will probably never know.

We knew 24 months, not 12, ago that this problem would occur and you are right that nothing was significantly done to solve it. Unfair to drag Pep into that though, As we know he or City did try to bid for seven defensive players in the last close season.

One window was never going to be anywhere near enough Piccs. It is far, far too early to cast any judgement on Pep's ability to address our problems. Pep was given 3 years to build a new team. By that time, most of the players he inherited will be well past their sell by date and will have needed to be replaced anyway. By comparison, I note the complete opposite view you had of Pellergrini. It was almost triumphal on the back of the Mancini sacking. Pellergrini was your answer to all the ills caused by Mancini. Didn't quite work out like that in the end. did it?.....Started well, faded badly. Part of our stagnation problem.

Peps latest comments don't seem to align with this view that it was all in the long term plan to piss about this season.

"In my situation at a big club, I'm sacked. I'm out," said the Spaniard.

"If it is Barcelona and Bayern, you don't win and you are out. Here I have a second chance and I will try to do it better next season."

Sorry but that doesn't sound like someone who expected to be so far off. It sounds like someone who has failed miserably in year one.

london blue 2 wrote:Peps latest comments don't seem to align with this view that it was all in the long term plan to piss about this season.

"In my situation at a big club, I'm sacked. I'm out," said the Spaniard.

"If it is Barcelona and Bayern, you don't win and you are out. Here I have a second chance and I will try to do it better next season."

Sorry but that doesn't sound like someone who expected to be so far off. It sounds like someone who has failed miserably in year one.

Thats all loose talk from Pep for the goons in the media to fill them full of shit, he knows he wont be sacked he knows he will be given time. He did not say he was going to be the messiah that the media portrayed him as. In fact nobody from the club hierarchy said anything silly like that. Pep said it would take 3 years if I remember correctly. Now I am not a staunch Pep man, I have an open mind on it and am willing to give him the opportunity he needs. Yes he has made some mistakes but he has done a hell of a lot of good too. I think (hope) he will learn a lot from his first season in the premier league. He will be backed in the summer and there is no alternative on the horizon.

london blue 2 wrote:Peps latest comments don't seem to align with this view that it was all in the long term plan to piss about this season.

"In my situation at a big club, I'm sacked. I'm out," said the Spaniard.

"If it is Barcelona and Bayern, you don't win and you are out. Here I have a second chance and I will try to do it better next season."

Sorry but that doesn't sound like someone who expected to be so far off. It sounds like someone who has failed miserably in year one.

So we're basically not a big club according to Pep? In comparison to B & B and he has a point i guess, but it's still a somewhat untactful thing to say about your current employer.

john68 wrote:

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote: The problem with the new squad theory is that we have spanked hundreds of millions without managing to match Vincent, Silva, Yaya and Hart's ability. We are still miles away from replacing them adequately.
Yes Sane and Jesus look promising, but Nolito, Stones and Gundogan are bang average. I don't have any real belief that next year will be better, it might be, it might not.
And we all knew over twelve months ago that our full back positions were fucked, but nobody, (and that means Pep too) bothered their arse to address it.
In the meantime our defence was iffy, replacement keeper the worst I've ever seen (and yes I mean in forty three years) and the attack was often powder puff. Add in that Yaya and Silva are going to get less effective rather than more and every department needs to improve. Has Pep shown us he is the man to achieve this? Not really.
Next season could be great, but it could just as easily not be. My optimism does not match John's by any stretch.
Then again, Vinny could stay fit, a decent keeper arrives and we buy two pacy competent full backs.
It's 50/50 for me.

New squad, theory or not, is sadly a reality that has to be dealt with. The fact that it wasn't addressed and the squad strengthened properly after Mancini won the League is part of the stagnation that has left us with a necessary revolution, rather than an evolution. Marwood and Txiki stand in the firing line? Or was t under instruction from the owners? We will probably never know.

We knew 24 months, not 12, ago that this problem would occur and you are right that nothing was significantly done to solve it. Unfair to drag Pep into that though, As we know he or City did try to bid for seven defensive players in the last close season.

One window was never going to be anywhere near enough Piccs. It is far, far too early to cast any judgement on Pep's ability to address our problems. Pep was given 3 years to build a new team. By that time, most of the players he inherited will be well past their sell by date and will have needed to be replaced anyway. By comparison, I note the complete opposite view you had of Pellergrini. It was almost triumphal on the back of the Mancini sacking. Pellergrini was your answer to all the ills caused by Mancini. Didn't quite work out like that in the end. did it?.....Started well, faded badly. Part of our stagnation problem.

Pellegrini was a very good manager. We played some great football and won the league with him in charge of Mancini's squad in his first season at the club. However, once it became clear to him and the players that he was just a stop gap solution, he didn't have the man manager skill to get them going. No wonder with an ageing, stagnating squad with a lack of hunger after having won the league two time int he last three years.

In my opinion it felt like the top brass in the club just put everything on-hold for a couple of seasons in wait for Pep, and we now have to play catch-up. That decision (or non-decision) was a total fuck-up.

london blue 2 wrote:Peps latest comments don't seem to align with this view that it was all in the long term plan to piss about this season.

"In my situation at a big club, I'm sacked. I'm out," said the Spaniard.

"If it is Barcelona and Bayern, you don't win and you are out. Here I have a second chance and I will try to do it better next season."

Sorry but that doesn't sound like someone who expected to be so far off. It sounds like someone who has failed miserably in year one.

I don't see how what he's said ( which is pretty fucking stupid imo ) has any relevance to this thread.

mr_nool wrote:

john68 wrote:

Piccsnumberoneblue wrote: The problem with the new squad theory is that we have spanked hundreds of millions without managing to match Vincent, Silva, Yaya and Hart's ability. We are still miles away from replacing them adequately.
Yes Sane and Jesus look promising, but Nolito, Stones and Gundogan are bang average. I don't have any real belief that next year will be better, it might be, it might not.
And we all knew over twelve months ago that our full back positions were fucked, but nobody, (and that means Pep too) bothered their arse to address it.
In the meantime our defence was iffy, replacement keeper the worst I've ever seen (and yes I mean in forty three years) and the attack was often powder puff. Add in that Yaya and Silva are going to get less effective rather than more and every department needs to improve. Has Pep shown us he is the man to achieve this? Not really.
Next season could be great, but it could just as easily not be. My optimism does not match John's by any stretch.
Then again, Vinny could stay fit, a decent keeper arrives and we buy two pacy competent full backs.
It's 50/50 for me.

New squad, theory or not, is sadly a reality that has to be dealt with. The fact that it wasn't addressed and the squad strengthened properly after Mancini won the League is part of the stagnation that has left us with a necessary revolution, rather than an evolution. Marwood and Txiki stand in the firing line? Or was t under instruction from the owners? We will probably never know.

We knew 24 months, not 12, ago that this problem would occur and you are right that nothing was significantly done to solve it. Unfair to drag Pep into that though, As we know he or City did try to bid for seven defensive players in the last close season.

One window was never going to be anywhere near enough Piccs. It is far, far too early to cast any judgement on Pep's ability to address our problems. Pep was given 3 years to build a new team. By that time, most of the players he inherited will be well past their sell by date and will have needed to be replaced anyway. By comparison, I note the complete opposite view you had of Pellergrini. It was almost triumphal on the back of the Mancini sacking. Pellergrini was your answer to all the ills caused by Mancini. Didn't quite work out like that in the end. did it?.....Started well, faded badly. Part of our stagnation problem.

Pellegrini was a very good manager. We played some great football and won the league with him in charge of Mancini's squad in his first season at the club. However, once it became clear to him and the players that he was just a stop gap solution, he didn't have the man manager skill to get them going. No wonder with an ageing, stagnating squad with a lack of hunger after having won the league two time int he last three years.

In my opinion it felt like the top brass in the club just put everything on-hold for a couple of seasons in wait for Pep, and we now have to play catch-up. That decision (or non-decision) was a total fuck-up.

This is exactly how I feel about it Nool.