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Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

Alioune DVToure wrote:Rashford, Wilshere and Delph are lucky to have made the cut. Noble, Defoe and Carroll are unlucky not to have made the cut.

My impression is that, all in all, it's quite an exciting, ballsy young squad with plenty of pace and self-belief, and one which is free from the burden of hype which has doomed past England teams. If we win the group, who knows how far we can go?

The biggest problem - and one which nobody seems to have picked up on - is what the fuck we do if one of Smalling or Cahill gets injured. A back five of Hart-Clyne-Smalling-Cahill-Rose is fine but the defensive options beyond that are appalling.

Appalling is a bit harsh. Is there that much of a drop in quality to the second string?

Walker, Dier, Stones, Bertrand

Yep. I'm not happy with the thought any of those players starting a game in those positions. The full-backs if need be, but preferably not. At least Forster in a safe pair of hands on the bench.

I would've sacrificed one full-back (probably Walker) and taken either Shawcross or Jagielka as back-up.

Alioune DVToure wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

Alioune DVToure wrote:Rashford, Wilshere and Delph are lucky to have made the cut. Noble, Defoe and Carroll are unlucky not to have made the cut.

My impression is that, all in all, it's quite an exciting, ballsy young squad with plenty of pace and self-belief, and one which is free from the burden of hype which has doomed past England teams. If we win the group, who knows how far we can go?

The biggest problem - and one which nobody seems to have picked up on - is what the fuck we do if one of Smalling or Cahill gets injured. A back five of Hart-Clyne-Smalling-Cahill-Rose is fine but the defensive options beyond that are appalling.

Appalling is a bit harsh. Is there that much of a drop in quality to the second string?

Walker, Dier, Stones, Bertrand

Yep. I'm not happy with the thought any of those players starting a game in those positions. The full-backs if need be, but preferably not. At least Forster in a safe pair of hands on the bench.

I would've sacrificed one full-back (probably Walker) and taken either Shawcross or Jagielka as back-up.

I would have sacrificed a keeper

Wonderwall wrote:

Alioune DVToure wrote:

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:

Alioune DVToure wrote:Rashford, Wilshere and Delph are lucky to have made the cut. Noble, Defoe and Carroll are unlucky not to have made the cut.

My impression is that, all in all, it's quite an exciting, ballsy young squad with plenty of pace and self-belief, and one which is free from the burden of hype which has doomed past England teams. If we win the group, who knows how far we can go?

The biggest problem - and one which nobody seems to have picked up on - is what the fuck we do if one of Smalling or Cahill gets injured. A back five of Hart-Clyne-Smalling-Cahill-Rose is fine but the defensive options beyond that are appalling.

Appalling is a bit harsh. Is there that much of a drop in quality to the second string?

Walker, Dier, Stones, Bertrand

Yep. I'm not happy with the thought any of those players starting a game in those positions. The full-backs if need be, but preferably not. At least Forster in a safe pair of hands on the bench.

I would've sacrificed one full-back (probably Walker) and taken either Shawcross or Jagielka as back-up.

I would have sacrificed a keeper

Had this discussion at work today. I would only evet take two GK but my colleague reckons you have to nominate 3 GK. Seem to recall maybe someone like S Korea named a forward as the 3rd GK in a WC squad and FIFA clamped down on it?

I'm no Rashford supporter, but I think it's fair to point out there are other explanations he's in over Carroll and Dafoe besides just bias towards United players, and Noble snubbed compared to Wilshere for allegedly dubious reasons.

1) If Welbeck is fit Rashford does not even make the preliminary squad.

2) The 5th striker is not making the squad as a result, because if Welbeck was fit he'd be iin the squad Townsend may not make it either because Welbeck takes his place. Maybe Rashford makes it by some miracle, but I doubt either he or Townsend make it anyway.

3) Picking Rashford is about the future or the crazy off-chance he pushes someone out. Since the 5th striker is highly unlikely to make the squad, what's the point of picking players like Carroll or Dafoe who are what they are and have limited or no potential to grow? Neither of them are making the squad, let's be real. If you take a risk on a fringe player I can understand going with youth. Hodgson is clearly thinking about the future to give Rashford experience, as he does show some quality and potential despite our understandable hatred of the United-hype machine playing some role here, and test him out as an international since he's never even played for the U-21's. MAYBE he performs spectacularly enough (I doubt it) to push someone out...actually it could be Sterling who I think Hodgson has penciled in the final squad as he was one of the best for England in the last WC.

4) Wilshere, Henderson and Sterling all are question marks due to injury and/or inconsistent form (Sterling), but these were staples of the previous team. Wilshere and Sterling, in particular, also have the potential to be world class or close to that level of player, which Noble I cannot see ever reaching, especially at his age. He had a good season, but form is not the only reason you select players, especially when there are others who have a good record in the recent past, and are not past it. I don't rate Henderson that high, as he and Milner are similar players, and I'd prefer James of the two, particularly for his versatility, if I was Hodgson.

I think calling up all three of Henderson, Delph and Wilshere is laughable. Noble played more games than those three combined this season and should've been given a crack a lot earlier for playing a fantastic season.

The same goes for Antonio. The guy has been phenomenal, scoring and running himself into the ground all season, even helping out at RB. But no, Hodgson has to include AnDROSS Townsend for scoring a handful for a relegated team after spending the first half of the season in the Spurs reserves.

Most of these might get scrapped from the squad anyway, but it leaves a really bad taste to see the manager prefering his darlings, however dire or nonexistant their season might've been, instead of acknowledging good performances.

I don't really care about Rashford as he will be either left out or barely feature. Kane, Vardy, Sturridge and if fit, Welbeck, are all better options and will be prefered. The bigger worry is that Rooney will be shoehorned into the starting eleven and drag everyone down.

Bianchi on Ice wrote:

DoomMerchant wrote:

Sister of fu wrote:If Rashford played for Watford and scored 7 goals would he be in the squad?

No way. And if Carroll or Defoe or Noble played for the Raggy cunts or the bin dippers they'd all be in the side for sure.

Cheers

You wouldn't blame noble to ask for a move to the scum to give himself a chance of a call-up. It's laughable that before every tournament England go into it carrying flaky players. I remember in 82 Greenwood taking the unfit Keegan and brooking to Spain...they played 20 minutes. Bryan Robson in 86..had a dislocated shoulder nah itll be ok as long as he doesnt fall over...oops...beckhams foot soap opera...etc etc...Sorry but if you are out of practice and not up to the intensity of a tournament where its possibly 5-6 games close together then forget it..England managers keep doing this and as far as I can remember it has never paid off

it's somehow deemed as the safe, polite as fuck English thing to do...when in reality you are the coarsest, most cynical fucks i've ever met. Choose who you want cunts and don't bow to conventional wisdom and history. Problem is only a nutter like Stuart Pearce would do that and the media wouldn't give someone like that 6 years to sort out a side and a team and sacrifice "not" being in a major tourney to develop a better platform. The FA think they did that with McLaren in some fashion, but they did nothing of the sort.

cheers

All I have seen this week is where Rooney will play. Have heard forward, left side of a front three, attacking midfield and even defensive midfield. He is a forward FFS. If he is deemed to be behind Kane or Vardy or both should we play 442, then he doesn't play. It really is as simple as that. Shoehorning into the side just because of who he is will never work. Never has with the midfield with starfish, Lampard and ginger pig being a prime example and it won't now.

Pick the formation you wish to play and pick the best players in each position in that formation based on form and the ability to link with the other players. Spain and Germany are not afraid to drop players and they both play in a certain way whereby players know their roles in the set up. Seem to recall they do well

Problem is as soon as Rooney was made captain he gets coated in solvite and stuck to the team. Only injury suspension or third group game desperation will see it change. I don't like players retiring from international football but we will have to wait until after this one for the cunt to fuck off. If he was half as effective as he was in 2004 England would still have a fine player and hed be worthy of a place but he isnt even half as good anymore.

PrezIke wrote:I'm no Rashford supporter, but I think it's fair to point out there are other explanations he's in over Carroll and Dafoe besides just bias towards United players, and Noble snubbed compared to Wilshere for allegedly dubious reasons.

1) If Welbeck is fit Rashford does not even make the preliminary squad.

2) The 5th striker is not making the squad as a result, because if Welbeck was fit he'd be iin the squad Townsend may not make it either because Welbeck takes his place. Maybe Rashford makes it by some miracle, but I doubt either he or Townsend make it anyway.

3) Picking Rashford is about the future or the crazy off-chance he pushes someone out. Since the 5th striker is highly unlikely to make the squad, what's the point of picking players like Carroll or Dafoe who are what they are and have limited or no potential to grow? Neither of them are making the squad, let's be real. If you take a risk on a fringe player I can understand going with youth. Hodgson is clearly thinking about the future to give Rashford experience, as he does show some quality and potential despite our understandable hatred of the United-hype machine playing some role here, and test him out as an international since he's never even played for the U-21's. MAYBE he performs spectacularly enough (I doubt it) to push someone out...actually it could be Sterling who I think Hodgson has penciled in the final squad as he was one of the best for England in the last WC.

4) Wilshere, Henderson and Sterling all are question marks due to injury and/or inconsistent form (Sterling), but these were staples of the previous team. Wilshere and Sterling, in particular, also have the potential to be world class or close to that level of player, which Noble I cannot see ever reaching, especially at his age. He had a good season, but form is not the only reason you select players, especially when there are others who have a good record in the recent past, and are not past it. I don't rate Henderson that high, as he and Milner are similar players, and I'd prefer James of the two, particularly for his versatility, if I was Hodgson.

The other thing with Rashford is the ability to throw a relatively unknown quantity into the mix with half an hour to go. His goals against us and against West Ham in the cup show that he's not the sort of player to be hesitant or to be scared to try something. Situations could arise that call for this sort of approach.

His inclusion in the squad in far from the oddest call. We need another centre-half badly, and The Owl has picked too many full-backs and central midfielders.

nottsblue wrote:Pick the formation you wish to play and pick the best players in each position in that formation based on form and the ability to link with the other players. Spain and Germany are not afraid to drop players and they both play in a certain way whereby players know their roles in the set up. Seem to recall they do well

Sadly, in the history of England managers, no one has ever dared do this. The press would crucify them, and it's sadly the press that really pick the squad based on populist opinion. Rooney shouldn't be anywhere near this, but can you imagine the fallout?

Same as when we insisted on playing both Owen and Rooney, rather than pick the best for the position and the other takes their place on the bench.

granted that Voy is the very actual ephitome of brainfart, also granted that "ppolitical influences" from the "most established" clubs are a weakness concerning all the Major Footballing Countries' FAs, worldwide.... the main and murky problem of the England International challanges was, is anf forever will be the lenght and tiresome season of the English football. which is in turn also a decisive part of its unique beauty, irrespectively of rich or poorer times it went through.

There you go...drinkwater out, cantpasswater in. One plays for leicester...one for dippers...cant think of any other reason for making that decision.

He is far to sentimental to the players that got England to the Euros. It should be on form IMO. Wiltshire no matter how talented has not earned his place so why pick him? Drinkwater must be gutted as he couldn't have done anymore than he did. Our very own Sterling, what has he done since Xmas, not very much but gets rewarded with a spot. Saying that I hope he gets his confidence back and returns to city flying in July.

Sister of fu wrote:He is far to sentimental to the players that got England to the Euros. It should be on form IMO. Wiltshire no matter how talented has not earned his place so why pick him? Drinkwater must be gutted as he couldn't have done anymore than he did. Our very own Sterling, what has he done since Xmas, not very much but gets rewarded with a spot. Saying that I hope he gets his confidence back and returns to city flying in July.

I think how you define form from an international managers perspective is different to that of a domestic manager. Taking Woy's dilemma is as good an example as any. Does he view 'form' as when the player in question played for England under his reign and in qualifying for the tournament finals or does he look at 'form' being how said player has performed in the second half of the domestic season or perhaps a combination of the two
To be honest I can understand Woy going for Wilshire over Drinkwater. He knows him he trusts him he's done it at international level for him before - he was top class for him in one of the away games in qualifying scored a cracker, won the game for England and ran the show, Drinkwater hasn't done that in his England career yet so right now that experience gives Wilshire the edge in Woy's mind. The gamble in this example is Wilshire's fitness of course. But the point here is that form for England has to be as significant a factor as domestic form.

My point wasnt wilshere over drinkwater...but henderson. If dier is injured or suspended he has only wilshere to play deep and in my opinion his ego will fail him playing there...id have him up with alli...where he can supply vardy and/or kane. Henderson has hardly played and isnt a good enough 10-15 yard passer to play deep. Rooney is the fucking reason for all this. If woy had a ramsey 66 moment and realised rooney (greaves) wasnt what the team required england might just suprise a few people but the manager would rather pick a centre forward as a no.10 because although his legs have gone and others are now ahead of him he plays for scum which gives him a free pass instead of the three others he could play at no.10. We also have a player who hasnt played enough but plays for the dippers picked instead of a player who has had a terrific season and is playing with confidence...which to me is more important than past form and the pissing in the wind that england managers seem to do...every single fucking time

Bianchi on Ice wrote:My point wasnt wilshere over drinkwater...but henderson. If dier is injured or suspended he has only wilshere to play deep and in my opinion his ego will fail him playing there...id have him up with alli...where he can supply vardy and/or kane. Henderson has hardly played and isnt a good enough 10-15 yard passer to play deep. Rooney is the fucking reason for all this. If woy had a ramsey 66 moment and realised rooney (greaves) wasnt what the team required england might just suprise a few people but the manager would rather pick a centre forward as a no.10 because although his legs have gone and others are now ahead of him he plays for scum which gives him a free pass instead of the three others he could play at no.10. We also have a player who hasnt played enough but plays for the dippers picked instead of a player who has had a terrific season and is playing with confidence...which to me is more important than past form and the pissing in the wind that england managers seem to do...every single fucking time

Sorry I was more addressing the general issue of what constitutes the definition of 'form' from an international managers perspective than actually commenting specifically on who I thought should or shouldn't be in the squad.

Again though picking up on Rooney, Woy has selected him on his England form as a player he can trust over and above what he has achieved for the rags this season and with Henderson who again like Wilshire has missed so much of the domestic season.

Sterling went backwards for city over the course of the season but he's been much better for England and I thought did well enough in the last to warm up games, proving that form for club doesn't necessarily translate to form for country.

I'm not a massive England fan to be honest i don't look too deeply into intricacies of formations and selections enough to make informed comments other than to say I can see why Woy takes England form (above club form) as seriously as he appears to.

Reading the report on the BBC and England it seems are playing Vardy and Kane on the wings with Rooney through the middle. By accounts, it is shit and not working. Not really a big surprise. Anyone watching corroborate this?

Looks like another tournament could pass us by

nottsblue wrote:Reading the report on the BBC and England it seems are playing Vardy and Kane on the wings with Rooney through the middle. By accounts, it is shit and not working. Not really a big surprise. Anyone watching corroborate this?

Looks like another tournament could pass us by

Not been watching religiously but been much more lively since Milner and Vardy went off for Wilshire and Sterling. Now changed shape again as llana and sturridge have come on. I don't read too much into these pre tournament warm up games. A time to test formations and players in order to understand how plan A's B's and C's might be best implemented.

You can overdo the tactical formations and actually make things more complex. We qualified strongly I wouldn't stray too much from that irrespective of the opposition being of a higher quality.

great ball from raheem

Finally a cross finds an England player. Who the fuck thought Rooney should be crossing?