The Challenge System

[Ted Hughes]

People being unjustly sent off is fair game.

But again look at that. Rooney gets Kompany sent off for fuck all & we are out of the cup. Some agree, some disagree, but the red card stands & then we see two worse incidents let go in the same week, including Johnson trying to injure a City player. We get knocked out of two cups, Utd & Liverpool go through.

These are the people we want to give more power to ?

[Wonderwall]

I dont see any reason why this could not be brought in and used perfectly well. I think that the games of Rugby and Cricket have been enhanced by the review system. There would need to be very clear rules though.

*Who can review?
*How long should each review take?
*Should the clock be stopped?
*There should be no appeal on the outcome of the decision, ala JohnTerry and crew surrounding the ref feeling hard done to!
*Rules should be in place for allowing the game to flow until a natural stoppage before review, thus stopping coaches from influencing counter attacks.
*If a flag/review is raised, and the passage of play continues and a goal is scored, this means.
A- the appealing teams goal will count if they win or lose the appeal (unless an infringement is found on the appeal footage that wasnt called for originally.
B- the opposition of the appeals goal will count if the appeal is lost
C- the opposition of the appeals goal will not count if the appeal is upheld
*The opposition is not allowed to intervene in the appeal process, its not their appeal and therefore they have no say in what is being reviewed

Just a few for the list but its all fairly simple and common sense IMO

This is much more in line with what I was thinking. Very Good. Did you come up with this or was it buried somewhere in the BBC article.
This is much more like the Rugby model, which works very well and keeps the game flowing until a natural break. The advantage system works quite well too. This could help eradicate the blight on the game which is, the likes of Terry and team or Rooney/Rio etc in seasons past badgering the ref as a tactic.
A sin bin for this kind of behaviour could sort that out too.

You absolutely can't have the game continuing while a review is taking place. The possibilities for abuse & incompetence are absolutely terrifying.

That list was off the top of my head.

Ted I am not with you?

A flag is raised indicating a review, the 4th official confirms the details of the review and it goes upstairs. They can do the full review and if its upheld, stop the game before the ball goes out of play, what is wrong with that? How can that be abused? The players wont know? If the players know a review is pending, they might want it to e reviewed and kick the ball out? There are endless situations but I dont get where you are coming from?

some cunts will use a review flag to call back a breakaway tackle which leads to the review not being upheld and a breakaway or counter getting muffled out.

I think it has to be very simple....

Any cards can be reviewed. Yellow or red. Not the "absence" of a card in the natural run of play. For example tho, if someone was handed a yellow, but clearly it should have been a red that could be fixed. Or if the video replay judge decides that it was indeed a foul but not worthy of a yellow, then it gets rescinded. But if no call was made you couldn't just simply at the next stoppage of play demand a review and get a card doled out.

Simple as those two things. The hawkeye thingy or whatever takes care of the goal stuff so you don't need to add that into the mix.

I think if you add into it another level regarding things like corners vs goal kicks, or "non-calls" or other factors it just gets far too messy.

cheers

Doomy, I have already covered that as not being possible.

[Ted Hughes]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

[Douglas Higginbottom]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

Sounds like 2 to 1 in City's favour so it's easy you send off Aguero.

And then send Gerrard off for stamping.

[iwasthere2012]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

For a start I don't agree with the appeal system. I think a TMO type of scenario should only be called upon by the ref. if that's the road they go down.
I see where you are going, but the TMO in rugby can only look back a defined number of passages of play (2 phases I think). The ref only calls upon them when he wants certain issues clarified which he usually directs the TMO towards.

This is exactly why I voted 'maybe'. I think something along the lines that WW could be worked on, but the throwing of the red hanky in business, is not conducive to football IMO. The authority has to remain with the referee and his officials. Any system they come up with should only be to enhance his chances of making correct decisions, not encourage the stopping of the game by the opposition managers for their own advantage.

[Ted Hughes]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

Sounds like 2 to 1 in City's favour so it's easy you send off Aguero.

And then send Gerrard off for stamping.

Almost.

You give a goal kick to Liverpool.

Then the week after, when an almost identical incident happens in reverse, you give Liverpool the penalty. Nobody will complain except us, on here.

[City64]

I voted "Not Arsed". Refs and linesman have always been pretty shite at the top level for many years , I have also always believed agendas and corruption exist in the game aswell so for "Some" to start pushing for video evidence is quite refreshing tbh , not heard it from FIFA or UEFA or the top brass in our domestic game though ??? but plenty of pundits and mangers are calling for it ......... get my drift or am I being totally cynical ? I don't really know !

[Wonderwall]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

It might stop all the WWE moves being performed during every corner!

I agree with iwasthere2012, it will be a defined set of rules, this is for all teams to adhere to and the officials to carry out. You need to take that tin foil hat off Ted.

[Ted Hughes]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

It might stop all the WWE moves being performed during every corner!

I agree with iwasthere2012, it will be a defined set of rules, this is for all teams to adhere to and the officials to carry out. You need to take that tin foil hat off Ted.

But it won't. The kind of instance I'm talking about is going to happen & it's going to be down to whether the video ref, decides to pick City, Liverpool, Utd, Whinger, Mourinho. How does the video ref decide ? He will give Liverpool the benefit of the doubt, & overturn the ref's decision. Then on Sky, they will all be arguing whether it was right or not, with Carragher saying it was accidental, Alan Smith agreeing & perhaps Neville saying they got away with one. So instead of the ref giving us a pen, we will be arguing why we didn't get one.

You really thing that all of a sudden, things will change ? Why ?

Can you tell me where you are going to find these people who are going to watch these replays & suddenly start interpreting things correctly & fairly without being influenced by outside pressure?

What exactly has been stopping them from giving Fellaini red cards for elbowing people in the face for instance ? The rules are there already, the video evidence is there, why has he got away with it all season ? They watch a replay of it, & decide there is no case to answer. We all know there is. They get it wrong.

This isn't going to happen during a game ?

Refs will be more inclined to give pens, because it can be overturned, so Rooney, Ashley Young, Sturridge etc, will be over at every touch, & if there is a 'touch' the ref will give it & the video will uphold it, wheras now, the ref may figure it's not enough contact. If he has a backup system, what the fuck, give it anyway.

[Blue Since 76]

No thanks. It works in things like cricket and rugby as they are more naturally stop start. Which is why for most games you can count the crowd from a quick scan of the empty stands.

A better idea is every pundit had to call it the first time he sees it in real time. He then had to defend his decision through endless replays, some using 3D graphics. The following night, a group of ex-referees get to go on tv and complain about the shocking punditry and how it's got worse.

My favourite is when they say a player is "just offside", somehow criticising the linesman for a correct decision.

[Ted Hughes]

No thanks. It works in things like cricket and rugby as they are more naturally stop start. Which is why for most games you can count the crowd from a quick scan of the empty stands.

A better idea is every pundit had to call it the first time he sees it in real time. He then had to defend his decision through endless replays, some using 3D graphics. The following night, a group of ex-referees get to go on tv and complain about the shocking punditry and how it's got worse.

My favourite is when they say a player is "just offside", somehow criticising the linesman for a correct decision.

Well you've hit on another problem there; the camera does lie.

Watch slowmo & a telescopic lens, totally distorts what happens & for instance makes some tackles look much better, or much worse than they really are.

[iwasthere2012]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

It might stop all the WWE moves being performed during every corner!

I agree with iwasthere2012, it will be a defined set of rules, this is for all teams to adhere to and the officials to carry out. You need to take that tin foil hat off Ted.

But it won't. The kind of instance I'm talking about is going to happen & it's going to be down to whether the video ref, decides to pick City, Liverpool, Utd, Whinger, Mourinho. How does the video ref decide ? He will give Liverpool the benefit of the doubt, & overturn the ref's decision. Then on Sky, they will all be arguing whether it was right or not, with Carragher saying it was accidental, Alan Smith agreeing & perhaps Neville saying they got away with one. So instead of the ref giving us a pen, we will be arguing why we didn't get one.

You really thing that all of a sudden, things will change ? Why ?

Can you tell me where you are going to find these people who are going to watch these replays & suddenly start interpreting things correctly & fairly without being influenced by outside pressure?

What exactly has been stopping them from giving Fellaini red cards for elbowing people in the face for instance ? The rules are there already, the video evidence is there, why has he got away with it all season ? They watch a replay of it, & decide there is no case to answer. We all know there is. They get it wrong.

This isn't going to happen during a game ?

Refs will be more inclined to give pens, because it can be overturned, so Rooney, Ashley Young, Sturridge etc, will be over at every touch, & if there is a 'touch' the ref will give it & the video will uphold it, wheras now, the ref may figure it's not enough contact. If he has a backup system, what the fuck, give it anyway.

In fairness Ted so think what your first paragraph describes is the current way of things. What a form of TMO would do is make the calling immediate, rather than death by punditry.
I agree it is harder to get the balance right in football, but it shouldn't be dismissed as impossible.
Pundits would be irrelevant as they should be. They're all ex players with their allegiances. Part of the problem IMO is the lack of respect for the ref in soccer. Giving respect back and making any form of intimidation of him punishable is not a bad thing in my book.

[Ted Hughes]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

It might stop all the WWE moves being performed during every corner!

I agree with iwasthere2012, it will be a defined set of rules, this is for all teams to adhere to and the officials to carry out. You need to take that tin foil hat off Ted.

But it won't. The kind of instance I'm talking about is going to happen & it's going to be down to whether the video ref, decides to pick City, Liverpool, Utd, Whinger, Mourinho. How does the video ref decide ? He will give Liverpool the benefit of the doubt, & overturn the ref's decision. Then on Sky, they will all be arguing whether it was right or not, with Carragher saying it was accidental, Alan Smith agreeing & perhaps Neville saying they got away with one. So instead of the ref giving us a pen, we will be arguing why we didn't get one.

You really thing that all of a sudden, things will change ? Why ?

Can you tell me where you are going to find these people who are going to watch these replays & suddenly start interpreting things correctly & fairly without being influenced by outside pressure?

What exactly has been stopping them from giving Fellaini red cards for elbowing people in the face for instance ? The rules are there already, the video evidence is there, why has he got away with it all season ? They watch a replay of it, & decide there is no case to answer. We all know there is. They get it wrong.

This isn't going to happen during a game ?

Refs will be more inclined to give pens, because it can be overturned, so Rooney, Ashley Young, Sturridge etc, will be over at every touch, & if there is a 'touch' the ref will give it & the video will uphold it, wheras now, the ref may figure it's not enough contact. If he has a backup system, what the fuck, give it anyway.

In fairness Ted so think what your first paragraph describes is the current way of things. What a form of TMO would do is make the calling immediate, rather than death by punditry.
I agree it is harder to get the balance right in football, but it shouldn't be dismissed as impossible.
Pundits would be irrelevant as they should be. They're all ex players with their allegiances. Part of the problem IMO is the lack of respect for the ref in soccer. Giving respect back and making any form of intimidation of him punishable is not a bad thing in my book.

The pundits will imo have even more to ague about & so will we.

But in cricket for example almost every time someone is out, in a test match, the umpire calls for a replay, to see if the bowler overstepped & it was a no ball. If it was, the batsman goes back in & off we go again. But a no ball is judged on a line call. I go back to the example i gave earlier of Aguero scoring a 40 yard overhead volley & a replay being called where they disallow it because someonelike Kolarov is adjudged to have obstructed the defender.

If it happens tomorrow, no appeal, it's just one of those things happens 100s of times in in a game & gets played on; the goal stands. If you have replays, they call for one anyway, just in case, spot that incident & the official is under pressure to disallow the goal, which he probably reluctantly does. We all scream blue murder, then next week there is a fould leading upto the winner at Anfield, & the video judge decides it doesn't merit disallowing their goal.

This is the kind of stuff that WILL happen. It's not a 'maybe' it's going to happen if this stuff comes in,as well as refs giving more pens etc bcause they have a safety system & can leave the responsibility to someone else.

There is the ideal world version, & the real world version.

[Wonderwall]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

It might stop all the WWE moves being performed during every corner!

I agree with iwasthere2012, it will be a defined set of rules, this is for all teams to adhere to and the officials to carry out. You need to take that tin foil hat off Ted.

But it won't. The kind of instance I'm talking about is going to happen & it's going to be down to whether the video ref, decides to pick City, Liverpool, Utd, Whinger, Mourinho. How does the video ref decide ? He will give Liverpool the benefit of the doubt, & overturn the ref's decision. Then on Sky, they will all be arguing whether it was right or not, with Carragher saying it was accidental, Alan Smith agreeing & perhaps Neville saying they got away with one. So instead of the ref giving us a pen, we will be arguing why we didn't get one.

You really thing that all of a sudden, things will change ? Why ?

Can you tell me where you are going to find these people who are going to watch these replays & suddenly start interpreting things correctly & fairly without being influenced by outside pressure?

What exactly has been stopping them from giving Fellaini red cards for elbowing people in the face for instance ? The rules are there already, the video evidence is there, why has he got away with it all season ? They watch a replay of it, & decide there is no case to answer. We all know there is. They get it wrong.

This isn't going to happen during a game ?

Refs will be more inclined to give pens, because it can be overturned, so Rooney, Ashley Young, Sturridge etc, will be over at every touch, & if there is a 'touch' the ref will give it & the video will uphold it, wheras now, the ref may figure it's not enough contact. If he has a backup system, what the fuck, give it anyway.

With regards to who are they going to find. How about Ex Pros? The F1 stewards now have an Ex F1 Driver as the decision maker at each race and its different drivers all the time. There are enough GOOD ex pro's who could/would like to do this. They can also give rationale for their decision. The FA and Ref association are always going back to the point that ex pro's should be fast tracked into reffing, well here is an alternative.

On your point about Refs being inclined to give more pens, what would this achieve? If it isnt a pen, then its a yellow or 2nd yellow for simulation. The players you mention will know that if they dive, they will be caught out and punished.

There will always be a debate Ted, That's the beauty of the game. Sometimes there would be a decision and we could debate it on this board and have several different views on it. We have to accept that sometimes, it isn't possible to get that black and white clarity. However, what technology will do, is clear a lot of mistakes and ambiguity up.

[iwasthere2012]

So a corner kick comes in, Dzeko heads it toward goal, but it hits Henderson on the arm on it's way into the net & deflects out. Ref gives a pen.

Liverpool appeal. On the replay we see that it's possible Henderson handled accidentally. As we are watching the replay, we also see that before the ball reached Dzeko, Kompany went to head it & was hauled back by Skrotal, but in the same picture, Aguero was pulling Johnson's shirt.

What decision does the video judge give ?

It might stop all the WWE moves being performed during every corner!

I agree with iwasthere2012, it will be a defined set of rules, this is for all teams to adhere to and the officials to carry out. You need to take that tin foil hat off Ted.

But it won't. The kind of instance I'm talking about is going to happen & it's going to be down to whether the video ref, decides to pick City, Liverpool, Utd, Whinger, Mourinho. How does the video ref decide ? He will give Liverpool the benefit of the doubt, & overturn the ref's decision. Then on Sky, they will all be arguing whether it was right or not, with Carragher saying it was accidental, Alan Smith agreeing & perhaps Neville saying they got away with one. So instead of the ref giving us a pen, we will be arguing why we didn't get one.

You really thing that all of a sudden, things will change ? Why ?

Can you tell me where you are going to find these people who are going to watch these replays & suddenly start interpreting things correctly & fairly without being influenced by outside pressure?

What exactly has been stopping them from giving Fellaini red cards for elbowing people in the face for instance ? The rules are there already, the video evidence is there, why has he got away with it all season ? They watch a replay of it, & decide there is no case to answer. We all know there is. They get it wrong.

This isn't going to happen during a game ?

Refs will be more inclined to give pens, because it can be overturned, so Rooney, Ashley Young, Sturridge etc, will be over at every touch, & if there is a 'touch' the ref will give it & the video will uphold it, wheras now, the ref may figure it's not enough contact. If he has a backup system, what the fuck, give it anyway.

With regards to who are they going to find. How about Ex Pros? The F1 stewards now have an Ex F1 Driver as the decision maker at each race and its different drivers all the time. There are enough GOOD ex pro's who could/would like to do this. They can also give rationale for their decision. The FA and Ref association are always going back to the point that ex pro's should be fast tracked into reffing, well here is an alternative.

On your point about Refs being inclined to give more pens, what would this achieve? If it isnt a pen, then its a yellow or 2nd yellow for simulation. The players you mention will know that if they dive, they will be caught out and punished.

There will always be a debate Ted, That's the beauty of the game. Sometimes there would be a decision and we could debate it on this board and have several different views on it. We have to accept that sometimes, it isn't possible to get that black and white clarity. However, what technology will do, is clear a lot of mistakes and ambiguity up.

I do think things are pretty much as Ted describes they would be, now. This is why I'm with WW on this. I do think technology could help and give some respect back to the integrity of the game, rather than diminish it.
It would need to be carefully thought out and not along the lines of what Pulis is talking about.

[South Stand Balti]

I would give it a go. If it's not successful then stop using it. I think it would be very useful when Clattenberg is the ref or for penalty decisions at Anfield. It's difficult to know which decisions it should be used for but rugby seem to cope ok with it.

[Pretty Boy Lee]

Ted has hit the nail on the head for me.

Just as an example rugby league here has it and the wait for a decusion is so slow and boring it's a joke. When I 1st came to the country league was the game over here and everybody had a side. Since then year in year out they've chopped it up bit by bit and ruined it. Constant rule changes, teams in and out, league restructures, video replays. It no longer resembles what I watched as a Ali and I don't watch anymore. I'm not alone. It's dying a slow death here. Let's not tamper with football. It's the best sport in the world. Leave it be

[Wonderwall]

Ted has hit the nail on the head for me.

Just as an example rugby league here has it and the wait for a decusion is so slow and boring it's a joke. When I 1st came to the country league was the game over here and everybody had a side. Since then year in year out they've chopped it up bit by bit and ruined it. Constant rule changes, teams in and out, league restructures, video replays. It no longer resembles what I watched as a Ali and I don't watch anymore. I'm not alone. It's dying a slow death here. Let's not tamper with football. It's the best sport in the world. Leave it be

It has to move forward Lee, it cant just be left as there is a wave of resentment to poor officiating. there is a weekly debate about how we can help them. Even the head of refereeing has come out and asked for help, its gone too far now and its only a matter of time. I would welcome it TBH, it will remove a lot of injustice if they get the rules right. Lets not presume it will be bad for the game when its only there to help.

How much bad officiating is in the NFL for example (I am not saying we should have 3 hour games before someone gets on that little bandwagon). I watch NFL off and on and never see issues with the officials giving bad calls. I watch Footy a lot and see and hear about it on a daily/weekly basis.

[Bianchi on Ice]

I have voted yes for a challenge system, and while I understand the misgivings of some on here, Im with WW, something has to be done. My thought is that rather than being bogged down with endless appeals it should be one appeal per half per side from either the captain or the coach/manager...no dissent allowed...instant yellow for anyone else talking to the ref trying to influence him... what I have suggested in the past, and see no reason why it cannot run parallel to the league table is a disciplinary table, with clubs who persistently flout the laws of the game with dissent and gamesmanship being penalised with points deductions at the end of the season. It would then take the emphasis away from referees to wet nurse these players during games and free them to get on applying the laws CONSISTENTLY and also, finally, to maybe inforce some self governance to those who practise dissent and gamesmanship as an actual tactic.

[DoomMerchant]

Ted has hit the nail on the head for me.

Just as an example rugby league here has it and the wait for a decusion is so slow and boring it's a joke. When I 1st came to the country league was the game over here and everybody had a side. Since then year in year out they've chopped it up bit by bit and ruined it. Constant rule changes, teams in and out, league restructures, video replays. It no longer resembles what I watched as a Ali and I don't watch anymore. I'm not alone. It's dying a slow death here. Let's not tamper with football. It's the best sport in the world. Leave it be

i actually think that Ted has convinced me that it can really only open up space for more fucktardery and chicanery than we already see.

In terms of progress, i think the only thing i want is a way to end the dives. Retrospective bans for dives would suit me and it would clean up a lot of the playacting horseshit that i hate, and that even the pedestrian fans use to bash the game. Look at the reaction to Barca v Madrid? Two of the greatest teams in the world, on stage....looked like a bunch of cunts. For the whole world to see and furrow their brow at. A joke.

cheers