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This season our defence has looked anything but solid. Many reasons have been put forward for this, most of which have focused on our defensive midfielder situation. Since we let NDJ go, we have not had a true DM with his qualities, those which Matic has brought to the Chelsea team this season.

This lack of protection has coincided with the loss of form of 2 our our best players from last seaon, Vinny & Zabba, meaning extra pressure for any 2 from 4 of MDM, Manga, Clichy & Kolarov, with the loss of points in certain games we should have won.

Fernandinho, doesn't seem to be a genuine DM, Yaya is to lazy to be one & Fernando doesn't appear good enough.

So here's the point, what are others opinions of moving Vinnie into the role, playing in front of MDM & Manga, with an assortment of full backs to choose from.

He's very much in the Matic mold, he's tall, he's brave, he's quick, he can read the game & he has in the past been disciplined in his play. Most important, he can organise others. He came from Hamburg as a DM, so until we can upgrade Fernando or get Yaya tracking back, why not give it a try

Opinions please

Every week it's a different reason for us not performing at top level.

Systems, individuals, tactics, confidence....

The only thing that is wrong in most games is desire and hunger imo.
In games, or periods of games, where we press and fight for every breaking ball/lost cause. That is when we are at our best. The above elements may mean we might not win, or win convincingly, but without the hunger to close every ball down, all of the above is just bollox.

You play your way out of bad form and when your good form returns, you make sure you stay on that wave and play with the same intensity, regardless of the opposition.

That is our problem. When our confidence is down, we get drawn into what the oppo is doing. Like the aerial shit we witnessed last night, or the backward passing first half v Barca.

If we are to be a steam roller of a team, then we need high intensity at all times, because we are going to lose the ball. Too much strolling around (whether this is due to tiredness or laziness).

Attitude.

Original Dub wrote:Every week it's a different reason for us not performing at top level.

Systems, individuals, tactics, confidence....

The only thing that is wrong in most games is desire and hunger imo.
In games, or periods of games, where we press and fight for every breaking ball/lost cause. That is when we are at our best. The above elements may mean we might not win, or win convincingly, but without the hunger to close every ball down, all of the above is just bollox.

You play your way out of bad form and when your good form returns, you make sure you stay on that wave and play with the same intensity, regardless of the opposition.

That is our problem. When our confidence is down, we get drawn into what the oppo is doing. Like the aerial shit we witnessed last night, or the backward passing first half v Barca.

If we are to be a steam roller of a team, then we need high intensity at all times, because we are going to lose the ball. Too much strolling around (whether this is due to tiredness or laziness).

Attitude.

Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude!

Definitely Attitude!

I just watched the tunnel cam and the body language of the players coming out for the second half was like they couldnt be arsed to run around for another 45 minutes to earn their 100k - 200k a WEEK salaries.

Apart from Hart, there didn't seem to be a hunger and intensity there. What we don't have is a clear Leader, I think Kompany is NOT the leader we need. I love Komps and he has been great for us, however, he is no Vieira, Keane, Gerrard, Terry. Someone who the players look up to and respect, someone who leads by example and someone who the players are going to be scared of. I think the 'scared of' statement is very important, if you fuck up then you know you are going to get fucking lambasted from one goalmouth to the other. This season I have not seen Vinny do any of this, I have seen Hart and Zabba do it, but not Vinny. If it was up to me, Hart would be my captain, he is mentally strong, a good club ambassador and has all the attributes. Just a shame he fucks up or he would already be the captain IMO.

Wonderwall wrote:

Original Dub wrote:Every week it's a different reason for us not performing at top level.

Systems, individuals, tactics, confidence....

The only thing that is wrong in most games is desire and hunger imo.
In games, or periods of games, where we press and fight for every breaking ball/lost cause. That is when we are at our best. The above elements may mean we might not win, or win convincingly, but without the hunger to close every ball down, all of the above is just bollox.

You play your way out of bad form and when your good form returns, you make sure you stay on that wave and play with the same intensity, regardless of the opposition.

That is our problem. When our confidence is down, we get drawn into what the oppo is doing. Like the aerial shit we witnessed last night, or the backward passing first half v Barca.

If we are to be a steam roller of a team, then we need high intensity at all times, because we are going to lose the ball. Too much strolling around (whether this is due to tiredness or laziness).

Attitude.

Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude!

Definitely Attitude!

I just watched the tunnel cam and the body language of the players coming out for the second half was like they couldnt be arsed to run around for another 45 minutes to earn their 100k - 200k a WEEK salaries.

Apart from Hart, there didn't seem to be a hunger and intensity there. What we don't have is a clear Leader, I think Kompany is NOT the leader we need. I love Komps and he has been great for us, however, he is no Vieira, Keane, Gerrard, Terry. Someone who the players look up to and respect, someone who leads by example and someone who the players are going to be scared of. I think the 'scared of' statement is very important, if you fuck up then you know you are going to get fucking lambasted from one goalmouth to the other. This season I have not seen Vinny do any of this, I have seen Hart and Zabba do it, but not Vinny. If it was up to me, Hart would be my captain, he is mentally strong, a good club ambassador and has all the attributes. Just a shame he fucks up or he would already be the captain IMO.

I think Vinny a couple of season's ago was that man. I don't really see it with Hart. I'll take your word for it though, as you go to the games and see more than I do, but he wouldn't strike me as having the qualities you describe. Zabba is not playing well but definitely has the attitide you are looking for but I think the Captain needs to be somewhere along the spine of the team. It should be Vinny or Yaya but neither are up to it at the moment.

Once again, Nigel DeJong, Milner, Yaya, Mancini etc etc vs Cavani. Imagine this, v Barcelona. 10-0.



Look at the lack of effort for players to get forward for the equaliser, or get back to stop the winner.

The system Pellegrini plays doesn't cater for a defensive midfielder in the same way Maureen's does for example.

Our DM or holding player is required to play a more expansive game than what you get elsewhere. Vinnie doesn't have enough about him to play this role, neither would De Jong, neither does Fernando.

iwasthere2012 wrote:

Wonderwall wrote:

Original Dub wrote:Every week it's a different reason for us not performing at top level.

Systems, individuals, tactics, confidence....

The only thing that is wrong in most games is desire and hunger imo.
In games, or periods of games, where we press and fight for every breaking ball/lost cause. That is when we are at our best. The above elements may mean we might not win, or win convincingly, but without the hunger to close every ball down, all of the above is just bollox.

You play your way out of bad form and when your good form returns, you make sure you stay on that wave and play with the same intensity, regardless of the opposition.

That is our problem. When our confidence is down, we get drawn into what the oppo is doing. Like the aerial shit we witnessed last night, or the backward passing first half v Barca.

If we are to be a steam roller of a team, then we need high intensity at all times, because we are going to lose the ball. Too much strolling around (whether this is due to tiredness or laziness).

Attitude.

Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude, Attitude!

Definitely Attitude!

I just watched the tunnel cam and the body language of the players coming out for the second half was like they couldnt be arsed to run around for another 45 minutes to earn their 100k - 200k a WEEK salaries.

Apart from Hart, there didn't seem to be a hunger and intensity there. What we don't have is a clear Leader, I think Kompany is NOT the leader we need. I love Komps and he has been great for us, however, he is no Vieira, Keane, Gerrard, Terry. Someone who the players look up to and respect, someone who leads by example and someone who the players are going to be scared of. I think the 'scared of' statement is very important, if you fuck up then you know you are going to get fucking lambasted from one goalmouth to the other. This season I have not seen Vinny do any of this, I have seen Hart and Zabba do it, but not Vinny. If it was up to me, Hart would be my captain, he is mentally strong, a good club ambassador and has all the attributes. Just a shame he fucks up or he would already be the captain IMO.

I think Vinny a couple of season's ago was that man. I don't really see it with Hart. I'll take your word for it though, as you go to the games and see more than I do, but he wouldn't strike me as having the qualities you describe. Zabba is not playing well but definitely has the attitide you are looking for but I think the Captain needs to be somewhere along the spine of the team. It should be Vinny or Yaya but neither are up to it at the moment.

It was there for all to see against Barca, when Suarez scored the 2nd goal, Hart went absolutely NUTS at the players. I could hear him screaming at them from the 3rd tier. during the whole rant, vinny has his back turned to Hard and walked with his head down, gave no reaction and didn't utter a word to anyone. He looked a shell of the person he was in 2012.

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:The system Pellegrini plays doesn't cater for a defensive midfielder in the same way Maureen's does for example.

Our DM or holding player is required to play a more expansive game than what you get elsewhere. Vinnie doesn't have enough about him to play this role, neither would De Jong, neither does Fernando.

We need everyone to run about, for this system to work, & to show football intelligence.

What Wonderwall has posted re attitude, is exactly what I saw.

But look at the video above from Mancini's time. He played def mids & worked on everyone lining up to cover. Nobody could be arsed covering, none of the midfield are forward to help the attack when we equalise.

That's fucking years ago. It's exactly the same problem in a different system.

The back 4 should be a permanent fixture , it fuckign works for Chelsea.

Having said that , Kompany (Yes I know ) has cost us goals since he came back and when I say cost us , he has fuckign DIRECTLY cost us points.,......this is why we wont win the premiership and probably wont get any further in the CL..............I will even hazard a guess that is is also probably a contributing factor why some of the players (Aguero for one) is fuckign wound up and shouting at everyone.

Imagine playing well , on top , then scoring , then the same twat in defense fucks up..AGAIN..and City are on the back foot...and to cap it all hes the Captain telling you what to do !!!!

Not surprised some players are fuckign wound up.

Agree completely about attitude, it hasn't been good, we will just about get away with in games like last night, but it is only a part of the equation, there are other factors to consider. There seemed to be a bit of bickering and poor spirit among the players last night.
They look like they are a bit pissed off and not really up for it.

sheblue wrote:Agree completely about attitude, it hasn't been good, we will just about get away with in games like last night, but it is only a part of the equation, there are other factors to consider. There seemed to be a bit of bickering and poor spirit among the players last night.
They look like they are a bit pissed off and not really up for it.

Couldn't see the game last night but watched the edited highlights on City's OS. One thing struck me as odd, for our first goal where Sergio makes a run, doesn't receive a pass from Yaya, who puts it out wide to Silva instead. Sergio stops and throws his arms about as the play is still going on. He doesn't make his way into the box. You would expect him to be there on the six yard area where Silva eventually puts the ball in the net.
We scored anyway, so nothing is said, but I just thought it looked odd for a centre forward to not follow in. Not like him either.

Probably something out of nothing, but quite a few on here seem to be sensing something wrong and Goater was alluding to it on the radio also.

iwasthere2012 wrote:

sheblue wrote:Agree completely about attitude, it hasn't been good, we will just about get away with in games like last night, but it is only a part of the equation, there are other factors to consider. There seemed to be a bit of bickering and poor spirit among the players last night.
They look like they are a bit pissed off and not really up for it.

Couldn't see the game last night but watched the edited highlights on City's OS. One thing struck me as odd, for our first goal where Sergio makes a run, doesn't receive a pass from Yaya, who puts it out wide to Silva instead. Sergio stops and throws his arms about as the play is still going on. He doesn't make his way into the box. You would expect him to be there on the six yard area where Silva eventually puts the ball in the net.
We scored anyway, so nothing is said, but I just thought it looked odd for a centre forward to not follow in. Not like him either.

Probably something out of nothing, but quite a few on here seem to be sensing something wrong and Goater was alluding to it on the radio also.

I was having a pop at him for this as the goal went in. He was certainly out of sorts last night, but he wasn't alone in that.

iwasthere2012 wrote:

sheblue wrote:Agree completely about attitude, it hasn't been good, we will just about get away with in games like last night, but it is only a part of the equation, there are other factors to consider. There seemed to be a bit of bickering and poor spirit among the players last night.
They look like they are a bit pissed off and not really up for it.

Couldn't see the game last night but watched the edited highlights on City's OS. One thing struck me as odd, for our first goal where Sergio makes a run, doesn't receive a pass from Yaya, who puts it out wide to Silva instead. Sergio stops and throws his arms about as the play is still going on. He doesn't make his way into the box. You would expect him to be there on the six yard area where Silva eventually puts the ball in the net.
We scored anyway, so nothing is said, but I just thought it looked odd for a centre forward to not follow in. Not like him either.

Probably something out of nothing, but quite a few on here seem to be sensing something wrong and Goater was alluding to it on the radio also.

I noticed the same thing from him in the Barca game, shoulders slumped and a big sulk on everytime an attack broke down.

Apart from Hart, there didn't seem to be a hunger and intensity there. What we don't have is a clear Leader, I think Kompany is NOT the leader we need. I love Komps and he has been great for us, however, he is no Vieira, Keane, Gerrard, Terry. Someone who the players look up to and respect, someone who leads by example and someone who the players are going to be scared of. I think the 'scared of' statement is very important, if you fuck up then you know you are going to get fucking lambasted from one goalmouth to the other. This season I have not seen Vinny do any of this, I have seen Hart and Zabba do it, but not Vinny. If it was up to me, Hart would be my captain, he is mentally strong, a good club ambassador and has all the attributes. Just a shame he fucks up or he would already be the captain IMO.

I agree about the lack of a real leader. I can't define one like you have, nor identified possible leaders within the current squad who could take a more leading role. But I agree, there's a lack.

Cocacolajojo wrote:

Apart from Hart, there didn't seem to be a hunger and intensity there. What we don't have is a clear Leader, I think Kompany is NOT the leader we need. I love Komps and he has been great for us, however, he is no Vieira, Keane, Gerrard, Terry. Someone who the players look up to and respect, someone who leads by example and someone who the players are going to be scared of. I think the 'scared of' statement is very important, if you fuck up then you know you are going to get fucking lambasted from one goalmouth to the other. This season I have not seen Vinny do any of this, I have seen Hart and Zabba do it, but not Vinny. If it was up to me, Hart would be my captain, he is mentally strong, a good club ambassador and has all the attributes. Just a shame he fucks up or he would already be the captain IMO.

I agree about the lack of a real leader. I can't define one like you have, nor identified possible leaders within the current squad who could take a more leading role. But I agree, there's a lack.

I started a thread the other day where I was suggesting we need a 'Mr City' kind of player, who is the team leader & a bit of a star player. Vince is the nearest we have had, & is a great ambassador off the field, but we have never had one, on it.

Manuel's intense desire to entertain (i.e. play very attacking football that attempts to score a lot of goals every match) will almost always lead to the neglect of the defense

shortagain wrote:This season our defence has looked anything but solid. Many reasons have been put forward for this, most of which have focused on our defensive midfielder situation. Since we let NDJ go, we have not had a true DM with his qualities, those which Matic has brought to the Chelsea team this season.

This lack of protection has coincided with the loss of form of 2 our our best players from last seaon, Vinny & Zabba, meaning extra pressure for any 2 from 4 of MDM, Manga, Clichy & Kolarov, with the loss of points in certain games we should have won.

Fernandinho, doesn't seem to be a genuine DM, Yaya is to lazy to be one & Fernando doesn't appear good enough.

So here's the point, what are others opinions of moving Vinnie into the role, playing in front of MDM & Manga, with an assortment of full backs to choose from.

He's very much in the Matic mold, he's tall, he's brave, he's quick, he can read the game & he has in the past been disciplined in his play. Most important, he can organise others. He came from Hamburg as a DM, so until we can upgrade Fernando or get Yaya tracking back, why not give it a try

Opinions please

Its a fair point; but I will raise you one and suggest a recharged Zaba.

Vinnie could and has done the job before; but as has been suggested above; is he attacking enough, or is he similar to Fernando?

Zaba has played a handful of games for us as a 'box to boxer' and has scored goals (I remember a great goal and MOTM performance against Wigan). He has the fight and engine to play box to box.

Milner was the other player we all hoped would do this. He bangs on about how he is a central midfielder but he hasn't produced the goods in the middle in the little time he's had there.

phips wrote:Manuel's intense desire to entertain (i.e. play very attacking football that attempts to score a lot of goals every match) will almost always lead to the neglect of the defense

We defended very well for long periods last season, especially in the second half of the season.

We cant fucking clear the ball

Every clearence we make somehow reaches the opposition, this has been the cause of multiple goals this season

Bleed_Blue wrote:We cant fucking clear the ball

Every clearence we make somehow reaches the opposition, this has been the cause of multiple goals this season

The one that hit the post last night, being a prime example.