Seven and a half mins.

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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby freshie » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:47 pm

Good article on ESPN website about our current problems (although I'm not sure about the part about Nastasic):

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/blog/tactics-an ... ot-tactics

Manchester City's problems are caused by their players not tactics

The ESPN FC team explain how Liverpool were able to exploit Manchester City's weaknesses on Sunday and agree Manuel Pellegrini's days as City manager may be numbered.

After a week where Manchester City were convincingly defeated by both Barcelona and Liverpool, with 2-1 losses flattering the English champions on both occasions, manager Manuel Pellegrini's tactics inevitably came under fire.

For both contests, his 4-4-2 formation was outplayed in midfield and exposed between the lines, leading to many questions about whether the Chilean has the tactical nous necessary to get results against the biggest sides.

The 4-4-2 itself isn't necessarily a problem, although the implementation of the system is surely flawed. Atletico Madrid's 4-4-2 is an example of the possibilities with that system, although realistically that shape is more like 4-4-2-0, with the strikers dropping back behind the opposition midfielders and keeping the side extremely compact. There's a huge difference between that and the 4-4-2 used by Pellegrini -- and, indeed, by his predecessor Roberto Mancini.

That's the peculiar thing about Manchester City, while they've continually recruited new players and controversially changed managers over the last four years, their first-choice XI and formation has remained almost identical.

It's generally been a 4-4-2 with Joe Hart, Pablo Zabaleta, Vincent Kompany, Gael Clichy or Aleksandar Kolarov, Yaya Toure, David Silva, Samir Nasri, Edin Dzeko and Sergio Aguero starting. That's nine out of 11 players that have remained intact, with only a centre-back place and a central midfield slot up for grabs, and often changing from season to season. If there's a flaw in the system, it's a long-standing issue that isn't entirely Pellegrini's creation.

The 4-4-2 is the most basic footballing system around, seen as the default shape in English football. Its simplicity is a weakness in many respects, but it can also be extremely useful because players are fully aware of their responsibilities, and because it's a perfect system for striking up partnerships.

Whereas other systems thrive because they naturally create triangles, the 4-4-2 is essentially comprised of five solid partnerships. Manchester United's 1998-99 treble-winning side is the best example of a team of partnerships which maximised the abilities of the players. Strikers Dwight Yorke and Andy Cole, for example, were good players individually, but great as a partnership.

Manchester City have struggled to build these reliable partnerships, partly because they've neglected the concept of the "enabler," the player who doesn't shine individually but allows his partner, and sometimes others, to play to their full potential. This has been a problem in almost every department of the side, and is one of the main reasons their system is so easily exposed.
Sergio Aguero likes to play with another striker on attack but his style of play adds responsibilities to the midfield to cover for him.

Upfront is probably the closest City have come to a reliable central partnership, with Aguero and Dzeko complimenting each other nicely. Aguero is a peculiar player, more limited stylistically than often considered.

In terms of acceleration and clinical finishing, Aguero is unrivalled in world football, yet he's also a selfish footballer who depends largely upon teammates to provide him with good service and create space for him. Aguero says he prefers playing just behind another striker, like Dzeko for example, who can make decoy runs, and Dzeko does this by coming towards the ball.

However, with Aguero darting in behind it means City don't have a creative threat from deep without one of the wide players drifting inside. Aguero's excellent work in the build-up to Dzeko's equaliser at Anfield against Liverpool was actually somewhat unusual.

Even if you consider this partnership effective, and it largely is, the fact Aguero wants to play alongside a partner restricts his manager in terms of shape. Aside from playing with a midfield diamond, the only other genuine possibility is 3-4-1-2, which is why Mancini continued to experiment with that system in his final year at the club, without great success.

If it's two banks of four behind the strikers, however, you need great discipline. The problem, though, is that the two other two key players, Toure and Silva, depend upon vacating their natural position regularly. Therefore, they need responsible covering players alongside them.

City's wide midfielders always drifted inside under Mancini, who disliked natural wingers, and therefore, they often found themselves acting as a partnership in something of a 4-2-2-2. Silva is a brilliant playmaker, but he always drifts into central positions and rarely recovers his defensive position quickly. There was a good example at Anfield, where he stayed down feigning injury for a prolonged period. This means Samir Nasri, while a talented all-round attacking player, isn't the ideal player to start on the opposite flanks -- he's too similar to Silva.

Here, it's baffling that midfielder James Milner isn't an automatic starter, especially in big games. Silva provides the brains, Milner the brawn, and the most memorable City performance of the past four years, the 6-1 win vs. Manchester United at Old Trafford in 2011, came largely because these two combined brilliantly. This is the only partnership in the City squad that actually maximises the talents of two players, and yet Milner's still regarded as expendable.

In the centre, Toure is somewhat similar to Aguero: he needs license to constantly storm forward. However, while he's also capable of good defensive work, he's no box-to-box midfielder: he ambles back into position with little urgency, which means his midfield partner must be extremely intelligent positionally to prevent becoming overrun. Fernandinho, for all his qualities, isn't really this type of player. Ironically, he is naturally a box-to-box midfielder who regains his position well, but looks uncomfortable in the deepest midfield role, struggling to stop opposition counter-attacks.

Here, City missed a trick by selling Nigel de Jong, then replacing him with a string of players in Javi Garcia, Jack Rodwell, Fernandinho, Fernando and Frank Lampard, who are all more talented in a creative sense, but lack the Dutchman's positional discipline. He was the perfect foil for Toure, and was, in hindsight, highly underrated during his time at the club.

De Jong's absence, peculiarly, also triggered Vincent Kompany's demise. Most of the Belgian's problems arise when he moves forward to shut down a player between the lines, which is essentially a knock-on effect from the lack of midfield discipline. This was rarely a problem with De Jong sitting deep.
Without a true defensive midfielder on the squad, centre-back Vincent Kompany has to push up further to win challenges and that often leaves him exposed.

The centre-back partnership, meanwhile, looked better when Kompany was deployed alongside composed, calm defenders like Kolo Toure, Joleon Lescott and, in particular, Matija Nastasic (currently on loan at Schalke 04). They covered well when Kompany launched into tackles -- more impetuous, rash defenders like Martin Demichelis and Eliaquim Mangala have simply helped expose Kompany, and City, more frequently.

The full-back positions are less problematic. Nevertheless, Kolarov's constant overlapping would be better in a team with a more reserved left-sided centre-back and Milner offering cover, while Zabaleta's forward running would be better with a solid defensive midfielder ready to sweep behind.

The 4-4-2 isn't necessarily City's problem. If this 4-4-2 had Milner as a regular to provide balance for Silva, De Jong (or similar) to provide balance for Toure, and Nastasic to provide balance for Kompany, City would be a more formidable unit. However, this is essentially still a slightly ramshackle team of individuals, and while the quality of those players means City will continue to challenge for, and occasionally win, major honours, they aren't -- in the true sense of the word -- a particularly good team.

Michael Cox is the editor of Zonal Marking and a contributor to ESPN FC. Follow him on Twitter @Zonal_Marking.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:51 pm

That guy has just basically completely ignored the fact that we won the league last season.

It never happened.

Wouldn't know where to start with that.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Cocacolajojo1 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:52 pm

Good article on ESPN website about our current problems (although I'm not sure about the part about Nastasic):


Thanks for posting it!
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Peter Doherty (AGAIG) » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:53 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:That guy has just basically completely ignored the fact that we won the league last season.

It never happened.

Wouldn't know where to start with that.

It's fucking nonsense.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby freshie » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:55 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:That guy has just basically completely ignored the fact that we won the league last season.

It never happened.

Wouldn't know where to start with that.


Last season is irrelevant. We have regressed since then and are a shadow of that team. Opposition teams have worked out how to get the better of us and the swashbuckling football of last season has only been seen sporadically this season
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:58 pm

freshie wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:That guy has just basically completely ignored the fact that we won the league last season.

It never happened.

Wouldn't know where to start with that.


Last season is irrelevant. We have regressed since then and are a shadow of that team. Opposition teams have worked out how to get the better of us and the swashbuckling football of last season has only been seen sporadically this season


Fair enough. Winning the title is irrelevant & we need to go back in time 4 years. And bring back Nastasic.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Hazy2 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:00 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
freshie wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:That guy has just basically completely ignored the fact that we won the league last season.

It never happened.

Wouldn't know where to start with that.


Last season is irrelevant. We have regressed since then and are a shadow of that team. Opposition teams have worked out how to get the better of us and the swashbuckling football of last season has only been seen sporadically this season


Fair enough. Winning the title is irrelevant & we need to go back in time 4 years. And bring back Nastasic.

And Joleon Ted, hear if you need me mate!
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby freshie » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:04 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
freshie wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:That guy has just basically completely ignored the fact that we won the league last season.

It never happened.

Wouldn't know where to start with that.


Last season is irrelevant. We have regressed since then and are a shadow of that team. Opposition teams have worked out how to get the better of us and the swashbuckling football of last season has only been seen sporadically this season


Fair enough. Winning the title is irrelevant & we need to go back in time 4 years. And bring back Nastasic.


It's of little relevance to this season. Last season's title win is in the past - I'm more concerned with how we are shaping up this season and how we don't seem to be up to the challenge of defending our title as was the case the last time around. And I did say I wasn't sure about the comments regarding Nastasic. Don't be so facetious
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:07 pm

Well pick bits out that you like & ignore the other bits then

I think it's shite.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby freshie » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:09 pm

I think he raises some very good points
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:12 pm

freshie wrote:I think he raises some very good points


If we were actually trying to play like he suggests and getting it wrong. But we're not.

He doesn't mention any of the actual differences. We are just trying to play like we did under Mancini but not managing to do it. That's absolute crap.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby freshie » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:21 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:
freshie wrote:I think he raises some very good points


If we were actually trying to play like he suggests and getting it wrong. But we're not.

He doesn't mention any of the actual differences. We are just trying to play like we did under Mancini but not managing to do it. That's absolute crap.


Your pomposity is tedious
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:24 pm

freshie wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:
freshie wrote:I think he raises some very good points


If we were actually trying to play like he suggests and getting it wrong. But we're not.

He doesn't mention any of the actual differences. We are just trying to play like we did under Mancini but not managing to do it. That's absolute crap.


Your pomposity is tedious


Cheers.

Maybe true but that piece is still a load of shite.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:26 am

This imo, is a far better less bulshitty piece re City's problems, without going back to DeJong, Lescott or Nastasic. Now Ratboy has actually sat down & looked at it rather than just following the 'y can't play 442' sheep.. Still no mention of the pressing game though. But very much in keeping with the discussion some of us have been having.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... ville.html

How Manchester City can fix their big game blues - by Gary Neville
The Premier League champions are locked in a cycle of appalling performances in the biggest games - so Manuel Pellegrini must either change his tactics or his team.

"The pace of the big Premier League is superb. We see a very fast, aggressive contest. But when you take it to Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich or Dortmund, our clubs are falling short. City’s problem in that respect relates to three pairings: Agüero and Dzeko, Silva and Nasri, and Touré and his partner in midfield.

"Here’s why. If you play Toure with a partner in central midfield, I don’t think you can play Silva and Nasri. If you play Dzeko and Aguero, I don’t think you can play Yaya and a partner in midfield. If you play Nasri and Silva, I don’t think you can play the other two pairings, which is why, I believe, Pellegrini left Agüero out in Munich.

"I think he recognises that the physical capacity and/or age of the team is a looming problem for him, and that he can no longer play all of them in the same side.

"City are the only team I have seen so far that can take on Chelsea in the league, but unless they sacrifice the domestic title in favour of Europe and summon the kind of high-intensity performances abroad they lack just now, I don’t think they will win the Champions League."
Gary Neville, Telegraph, Sep 19, 2014

Six months ago I watched Manchester City suffer their latest European setback, a defeat away to Bayern Munich, and reached a conclusion: unless they change their strategy they cannot win the Champions League.

It gives me no pleasure to reaffirm that analysis in the context of City's last two defeats, but nothing has changed. The strategic flaws were as clear against Barcelona last week and at Anfield on Sunday as they have been regularly whenever Manuel Pellegrini’s side has faced top class opposition.

It is the same soup reheated with City, mistakes repeated enabling higher calibre players to punish them, but rather than sit here and reel off a list of their failings I’ve found myself grabbing a pen and paper and trying to work out how they go about fixing it.

The starting point of my argument now, as it was in September, is City are unbalanced when they play 4-4-2 with Yaya Toure, David Silva, Samir Nasri and Sergio Aguero in the starting line-up. They leave themselves exposed too often.

It is not the system that is to blame, but the characteristics of the players within it. I’ve played in great teams that made 4-4-2 work, but fundamental to its success is not only showing the desire to make things happen with the ball, but to be equally combative without it. Quite frankly, the desire of City’s players in transition from having the ball to being without the ball against Liverpool on Sunday was nothing short of appalling in a game of that magnitude.

Silva is a player I admire as much any currently playing in the Premier League, but there was one incident on Merseyside which summed up City. Silva was tackled and it took him 10 seconds to get back to his feet and another 45 seconds to rejoin the game as it proceeded around him.

You may argue Silva is primarily a creative player – and of course you’d be right – but in a 4-4-2 system you can’t have such a dereliction of duty by anyone. It was embarrassing how City’s midfielders approached the tougher aspects of the game. Recovery runs when the ball goes past you or you give it away, screening your centre backs , shifting up and across with the ball to ensure a compact unit and pressing your opponent.

So what does Pellegrini do about it? You can break it down to three options.

First, he can do nothing and simply persist with the same formation as the last 18 months. City will continue to win around 90 per cent of their games in the Premier League when they’re playing well, and maybe 80 per cent when they having a bit of a dip, because they are better than most teams in England no matter what tactics they favour. They won the Premier League title playing that way last season, so can take the attitude that there is not much of a problem.

What will happen then is they’ll be drawn to play Barcelona or Bayern Munich or Real Madrid next season, too, and we can have the same conversations while I redirect you to this column some time around September following their next humbling European defeat. We can all save ourselves time and cut and paste the same articles about City’s flaws.

The second option is trickier for Pellegrini. It involves dropping one of his big names. If he has decided 4-4-2 will always be the way for him, Toure, Aguero or Silva need to be sacrificed.

That may serve the broader impact of the team, but what impact does it have around the club? You not only alienate the player you have left out, but possibly others in the dressing room. I’ve been there when the biggest egos are bruised. Trust me, it creates an atmosphere around a club and public pressure the manager does not want if he can avoid it.

The third option, which I believe Pellegrini has no option but to consider to have any chance against Barcelona in the second leg, is a change of system. There may be some accusations of panic, or questions as to whether a change in philosophy has come too late, but when something is patently not working you have to earn your corn as a manager and come up with fresh ideas.

Pellegrini knows the current 4-4-2 won’t work in the Nou Camp, so he could consider a diamond, or a 4-3-3. Even then the fundamental problem remains. If I was picking a City side in a diamond formation, I still could not accommodate Toure, Silva and Aguero in the same line-up.

Image

The above would leave a decision for Pellegrini on Yaya or Silva because against the top teams like Barcelona, I don’t believe either of those two have the energy to play the wider midfield roles in a diamond.

If you go to a 4-3-3, I believe you lose too much from Aguero’s game. As was shown at Anfield when Pellegrini sent on James Milner to reinforce midfield, Aguero is not as effective without a strike partner. He thrives with support, but when you pair him with Dzeko, Jovetic or Bony the midfield balance is not right. That’s the coaching dilemma.

Image

The problem with this system is it leaves Aguero upfront on his own which means he can become isolated. He has previously been less effective as a lone striker.

After scribbling a few formations and teams, I decided if you’re going to play Silva, Toure and Aguero the best option is for City to adopt a 3-5-2 formation even though I'm no great fan.

Image

It’s a system that offers extra protection for the back players, enables Silva to drift into the pockets where he works so effectively, Yaya the licence to be a little less disciplined with three centre backs and gives Aguero the support he requires upfront.

City fans might note a certain irony in this selection which demands I make a confession – I’m two years too late. There was someone who thought this was the right way for City to evolve in 2013 - a coach out there who recognised a long time ago City can’t get to the higher level playing 4-4-2 with their star players. I was highly critical of this at the time, arguing it was unnecessary tinkering, meddling with a winning formula.

For that, I apologise to Roberto Mancini. He saw these issues earlier than us all!

I can imagine Pellegrini has his own blank sheet of paper on which he is currently jotting down names in different formations, trying to figure out how to make City impose themselves in Europe.


That's the kind of discussion they should have been having on Sky rather than a fucking bland, shite, 'y caaan't play 442..'


Problem with Bob's solution imo, was that we were much worse trying to play it, than before we changed!

But what it does show, is that after a while, he sees a problem & starts TRYING not succeeding, but TRYING to fix it. Can't do it, sacked.

New manager has to then go through exactly the same process & try his way of doing it. As he is TRYING to fix it his way, the demands are now to sack him.

And so the next manager starts, with largely the same problem, same players, then finds he can't quite get them to work in his system, TRIES to fix it, can't, sack him, etc etc etc.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby sheblue » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:18 am

If bony gets a start it will be interesting to see how he works for the team, by work i mean actual hard work and sheer effort, not just how he ends up playing. Both dzeko and aguero are too slow at working back, couple that with silva, nasri and toure efforts at tackling/closing = recipe for disaster.
If bony cant be bothered doing the ugly things better than the other two, well what was the point?
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Wonderwall » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:28 am

sheblue wrote:If bony gets a start it will be interesting to see how he works for the team, by work i mean actual hard work and sheer effort, not just how he ends up playing. Both dzeko and aguero are too slow at working back, couple that with silva, nasri and toure efforts at tackling/closing = recipe for disaster.
If bony cant be bothered doing the ugly things better than the other two, well what was the point?


dont hold your breath, we were down to 10 men, playing the 1 team in the world that you need to work twice as hard against. Yet he strolled around and didn't chase back, he was fresh as well, he pissed me off that night and if he doesn't show the right attitude tonight, I will be the first one on his case!!!
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby gmercer1 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:58 pm

Wonderwall wrote:
sheblue wrote:If bony gets a start it will be interesting to see how he works for the team, by work i mean actual hard work and sheer effort, not just how he ends up playing. Both dzeko and aguero are too slow at working back, couple that with silva, nasri and toure efforts at tackling/closing = recipe for disaster.
If bony cant be bothered doing the ugly things better than the other two, well what was the point?


dont hold your breath, we were down to 10 men, playing the 1 team in the world that you need to work twice as hard against. Yet he strolled around and didn't chase back, he was fresh as well, he pissed me off that night and if he doesn't show the right attitude tonight, I will be the first one on his case!!!


I was livid at his lack of effort that night. Comes on fresh then stands there watching! he better pull his finger out and fast.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Foreverinbluedreams » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:21 pm

Plenty of food for thought in both them articles above although the first one does have a lot of holes in it.

One point that I wholeheartedly agree with is that Aguero needs a partner up front to be at his best.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby sheblue » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:12 pm

Foreverinbluedreams wrote:Plenty of food for thought in both them articles above although the first one does have a lot of holes in it.

One point that I wholeheartedly agree with is that Aguero needs a partner up front to be at his best.


What about deploying silva in behind him.
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Re: Seven and a half mins.

Postby Foreverinbluedreams » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:16 pm

sheblue wrote:
Foreverinbluedreams wrote:Plenty of food for thought in both them articles above although the first one does have a lot of holes in it.

One point that I wholeheartedly agree with is that Aguero needs a partner up front to be at his best.


What about deploying silva in behind him.


Yep could work but I'd be more inclined to have a physical player ala Negredo.

I liked Silva behind Dzeko away at Bayern last season, thought that worked a treat.
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