Blue2 wrote:Interesting reading https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-che ... edwyn-evan
Don't see why someone should admit a crime, even after conviction, if they didn't do it.
Im_Spartacus wrote:Cocacolajojo wrote:This thread really made me depressed the first time around but thanks Slim, Hutch, Nigel and Lev for bringing some sense into the thread.
I work at uni where there is a strict non-racism policy. If I had been caught calling students racist words, I don't see a future for me in uni. I burnt that bridge. It's what I trained for my entire life by first going to regular school for twelve years and then at uni for 5 more before I started my PhD. That doesn't mean I have a right to stay at uni. It's back to square one for me. That doesn't mean I'm a bad person, it just means that I'm incompatible with uni for the rest of my life. I can probably work somewhere else and make a decent living, have a family, and so on. So can Evans, even if he doesn't play football again.
Having been thrown out of a country for unknowingly breaking a law, does that mean my wife loses the trust of every potential university employer in the world? Or, as happened, did a top tier university see fit to consider that against her ability to do the job? Technically, as a Finance Director any breach of trust or criminal offence, really should see her banished on your logic?
In your own field, if you are faculty or a researcher and guilty of racism, how would every university in the world know about this unless you underwent trial by media as Evans is now? And even if it was racism, good faculty will always get another chance because of the economic potential they bring to a university. A racist is a racist, but if he has the potential to find a cure for cancer, most Universities will overlook that for the greater good and their own personal enrichment.
But even 2nd rate faculty can improve a 3rd rate university! See the link here......surely it's the same thing.....the economic potential helps a potential employer see past the bad a person may have done, and most balanced people accept that people make mistakes and learn from them.
And this is the exact situation we have here. A guy has made a mistake, been punished for it, and now is being subject of a witch hunt when he tries to resume his career.
I'm not even interested in the argument about his guilt, that's secondary and will be dealt with in time, but the argument that he should be treated the same as other professions is bollocks and based on petty jealousy that he will retain some degree of his former earning power. Doctors/teachers have a specific position of responsibility towards the people in their care, of course they should be struck off if they fundamentally breach that trust. The guy kicks a football around for a living, and that profession as far as I know, poses no more risk to the general public, as striking off a window cleaner, a postman, or a joiner!
Im_Spartacus wrote:Cocacolajojo wrote:This thread really made me depressed the first time around but thanks Slim, Hutch, Nigel and Lev for bringing some sense into the thread.
I work at uni where there is a strict non-racism policy. If I had been caught calling students racist words, I don't see a future for me in uni. I burnt that bridge. It's what I trained for my entire life by first going to regular school for twelve years and then at uni for 5 more before I started my PhD. That doesn't mean I have a right to stay at uni. It's back to square one for me. That doesn't mean I'm a bad person, it just means that I'm incompatible with uni for the rest of my life. I can probably work somewhere else and make a decent living, have a family, and so on. So can Evans, even if he doesn't play football again.
Having been thrown out of a country for unknowingly breaking a law, does that mean my wife loses the trust of every potential university employer in the world? Or, as happened, did a top tier university see fit to consider that against her ability to do the job? Technically, as a Finance Director any breach of trust or criminal offence, really should see her banished on your logic?
In your own field, if you are faculty or a researcher and guilty of racism, how would every university in the world know about this unless you underwent trial by media as Evans is now? And even if it was racism, good faculty will always get another chance because of the economic potential they bring to a university. A racist is a racist, but if he has the potential to find a cure for cancer, most Universities will overlook that for the greater good and their own personal enrichment.
But even 2nd rate faculty can improve a 3rd rate university! See the link here......surely it's the same thing.....the economic potential helps a potential employer see past the bad a person may have done, and most balanced people accept that people make mistakes and learn from them.
And this is the exact situation we have here. A guy has made a mistake, been punished for it, and now is being subject of a witch hunt when he tries to resume his career.
I'm not even interested in the argument about his guilt, that's secondary and will be dealt with in time, but the argument that he should be treated the same as other professions is bollocks and based on petty jealousy that he will retain some degree of his former earning power. Doctors/teachers have a specific position of responsibility towards the people in their care, of course they should be struck off if they fundamentally breach that trust. The guy kicks a football around for a living, and that profession as far as I know, poses no more risk to the general public, as striking off a window cleaner, a postman, or a joiner!
Slim wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:Cocacolajojo wrote:This thread really made me depressed the first time around but thanks Slim, Hutch, Nigel and Lev for bringing some sense into the thread.
I work at uni where there is a strict non-racism policy. If I had been caught calling students racist words, I don't see a future for me in uni. I burnt that bridge. It's what I trained for my entire life by first going to regular school for twelve years and then at uni for 5 more before I started my PhD. That doesn't mean I have a right to stay at uni. It's back to square one for me. That doesn't mean I'm a bad person, it just means that I'm incompatible with uni for the rest of my life. I can probably work somewhere else and make a decent living, have a family, and so on. So can Evans, even if he doesn't play football again.
Having been thrown out of a country for unknowingly breaking a law, does that mean my wife loses the trust of every potential university employer in the world? Or, as happened, did a top tier university see fit to consider that against her ability to do the job? Technically, as a Finance Director any breach of trust or criminal offence, really should see her banished on your logic?
In your own field, if you are faculty or a researcher and guilty of racism, how would every university in the world know about this unless you underwent trial by media as Evans is now? And even if it was racism, good faculty will always get another chance because of the economic potential they bring to a university. A racist is a racist, but if he has the potential to find a cure for cancer, most Universities will overlook that for the greater good and their own personal enrichment.
But even 2nd rate faculty can improve a 3rd rate university! See the link here......surely it's the same thing.....the economic potential helps a potential employer see past the bad a person may have done, and most balanced people accept that people make mistakes and learn from them.
And this is the exact situation we have here. A guy has made a mistake, been punished for it, and now is being subject of a witch hunt when he tries to resume his career.
I'm not even interested in the argument about his guilt, that's secondary and will be dealt with in time, but the argument that he should be treated the same as other professions is bollocks and based on petty jealousy that he will retain some degree of his former earning power. Doctors/teachers have a specific position of responsibility towards the people in their care, of course they should be struck off if they fundamentally breach that trust. The guy kicks a football around for a living, and that profession as far as I know, poses no more risk to the general public, as striking off a window cleaner, a postman, or a joiner!
Are you welcome back in that country? I know in Australia there was a guy who got convicted of GBH, he was English born but came out here when he was a baby. He never bothered getting naturalised and as such, was kicked out of the country and back to England, barred forever from entering Australia again. He had no family back there, no friends and never visited. It was insane to think that a crime he committed could have far reaching consequences isn't it? Luckily we're not after anything that extreme in this case are we? Are we really?
Honest question, should a rapist after serving his sentence be allowed to move in next door to his victim?
Nigels Tackle wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:Cocacolajojo wrote:This thread really made me depressed the first time around but thanks Slim, Hutch, Nigel and Lev for bringing some sense into the thread.
I work at uni where there is a strict non-racism policy. If I had been caught calling students racist words, I don't see a future for me in uni. I burnt that bridge. It's what I trained for my entire life by first going to regular school for twelve years and then at uni for 5 more before I started my PhD. That doesn't mean I have a right to stay at uni. It's back to square one for me. That doesn't mean I'm a bad person, it just means that I'm incompatible with uni for the rest of my life. I can probably work somewhere else and make a decent living, have a family, and so on. So can Evans, even if he doesn't play football again.
Having been thrown out of a country for unknowingly breaking a law, does that mean my wife loses the trust of every potential university employer in the world? Or, as happened, did a top tier university see fit to consider that against her ability to do the job? Technically, as a Finance Director any breach of trust or criminal offence, really should see her banished on your logic?
In your own field, if you are faculty or a researcher and guilty of racism, how would every university in the world know about this unless you underwent trial by media as Evans is now? And even if it was racism, good faculty will always get another chance because of the economic potential they bring to a university. A racist is a racist, but if he has the potential to find a cure for cancer, most Universities will overlook that for the greater good and their own personal enrichment.
But even 2nd rate faculty can improve a 3rd rate university! See the link here......surely it's the same thing.....the economic potential helps a potential employer see past the bad a person may have done, and most balanced people accept that people make mistakes and learn from them.
And this is the exact situation we have here. A guy has made a mistake, been punished for it, and now is being subject of a witch hunt when he tries to resume his career.
I'm not even interested in the argument about his guilt, that's secondary and will be dealt with in time, but the argument that he should be treated the same as other professions is bollocks and based on petty jealousy that he will retain some degree of his former earning power. Doctors/teachers have a specific position of responsibility towards the people in their care, of course they should be struck off if they fundamentally breach that trust. The guy kicks a football around for a living, and that profession as far as I know, poses no more risk to the general public, as striking off a window cleaner, a postman, or a joiner!
chedwin knew exactly what he was doing though
Lev Bronstein wrote:Ooooo, the "if the Death Doctors in the Nazi concentration camp had discovered a cure for cancer, would we refuse to use it on moral grounds" question. Of course we would, but that wouldn't mean that the doctors should escape punishment for their actions.
Ched Evans did not make a mistake, he committed a crime. Repeat: he did not make a mistake he committed a crime. Surely, you see the difference.
As for him suffering a witch-hunt, he's not suffering as much as his victim.
For the most part professional footballers are very well paid and have a prominent status. With that should come a realisation that they are going to be in the spotlight and are going to suffer judgements that others don't. If they can't stand that, then tough shit - become a pluber
Lev Bronstein wrote:Ched Evans did not make a mistake, he committed a crime. Repeat: he did not make a mistake he committed a crime. Surely, you see the difference.
Im_Spartacus wrote:Nigels Tackle wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:Cocacolajojo wrote:This thread really made me depressed the first time around but thanks Slim, Hutch, Nigel and Lev for bringing some sense into the thread.
I work at uni where there is a strict non-racism policy. If I had been caught calling students racist words, I don't see a future for me in uni. I burnt that bridge. It's what I trained for my entire life by first going to regular school for twelve years and then at uni for 5 more before I started my PhD. That doesn't mean I have a right to stay at uni. It's back to square one for me. That doesn't mean I'm a bad person, it just means that I'm incompatible with uni for the rest of my life. I can probably work somewhere else and make a decent living, have a family, and so on. So can Evans, even if he doesn't play football again.
Having been thrown out of a country for unknowingly breaking a law, does that mean my wife loses the trust of every potential university employer in the world? Or, as happened, did a top tier university see fit to consider that against her ability to do the job? Technically, as a Finance Director any breach of trust or criminal offence, really should see her banished on your logic?
In your own field, if you are faculty or a researcher and guilty of racism, how would every university in the world know about this unless you underwent trial by media as Evans is now? And even if it was racism, good faculty will always get another chance because of the economic potential they bring to a university. A racist is a racist, but if he has the potential to find a cure for cancer, most Universities will overlook that for the greater good and their own personal enrichment.
But even 2nd rate faculty can improve a 3rd rate university! See the link here......surely it's the same thing.....the economic potential helps a potential employer see past the bad a person may have done, and most balanced people accept that people make mistakes and learn from them.
And this is the exact situation we have here. A guy has made a mistake, been punished for it, and now is being subject of a witch hunt when he tries to resume his career.
I'm not even interested in the argument about his guilt, that's secondary and will be dealt with in time, but the argument that he should be treated the same as other professions is bollocks and based on petty jealousy that he will retain some degree of his former earning power. Doctors/teachers have a specific position of responsibility towards the people in their care, of course they should be struck off if they fundamentally breach that trust. The guy kicks a football around for a living, and that profession as far as I know, poses no more risk to the general public, as striking off a window cleaner, a postman, or a joiner!
chedwin knew exactly what he was doing though
Ok, I'll. bite on whether I think he's guilty.........
Yes, I bet he did know exactly what he was doing, but if shagging a pissed up bird is an offence mate, we are all fucked aren't we? The opposite is also true. No joke here, I've woken up on one particular occasion so seriously disturbed at what I found next to me and told myself there is no fucking way I would have agreed to THAT, and honestly felt fucking violated, physically sick. If I'd gone to the nick and complained that I think I was raped because I didn't remember anything, I'd have been laughed out of the fucking place.
The whole premise of the case disturbs me to fuck when you put it like that, that there is absolutely no evidence that she didn't consent, evidence that lack of memory doesn't equate to lack of capacity to consent, yet a guy gets convicted of rape on the balance of probabilities. So whilst, yes, he knew what he was doing, what the fuck happened to 'beyond reasonable doubt?' There isn't even any evidence that a crime was actually committed!
This shit happens week in, week out up and down the country. In the morning, you dust yourself down, chalk it down to experience and move on. If he wasn't 1: male, 2: a footballer, this would never have gotten as far as it did in the first place, so is he not a victim of his own circumstances?
Im_Spartacus wrote:Nigels Tackle wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:Cocacolajojo wrote:This thread really made me depressed the first time around but thanks Slim, Hutch, Nigel and Lev for bringing some sense into the thread.
I work at uni where there is a strict non-racism policy. If I had been caught calling students racist words, I don't see a future for me in uni. I burnt that bridge. It's what I trained for my entire life by first going to regular school for twelve years and then at uni for 5 more before I started my PhD. That doesn't mean I have a right to stay at uni. It's back to square one for me. That doesn't mean I'm a bad person, it just means that I'm incompatible with uni for the rest of my life. I can probably work somewhere else and make a decent living, have a family, and so on. So can Evans, even if he doesn't play football again.
Having been thrown out of a country for unknowingly breaking a law, does that mean my wife loses the trust of every potential university employer in the world? Or, as happened, did a top tier university see fit to consider that against her ability to do the job? Technically, as a Finance Director any breach of trust or criminal offence, really should see her banished on your logic?
In your own field, if you are faculty or a researcher and guilty of racism, how would every university in the world know about this unless you underwent trial by media as Evans is now? And even if it was racism, good faculty will always get another chance because of the economic potential they bring to a university. A racist is a racist, but if he has the potential to find a cure for cancer, most Universities will overlook that for the greater good and their own personal enrichment.
But even 2nd rate faculty can improve a 3rd rate university! See the link here......surely it's the same thing.....the economic potential helps a potential employer see past the bad a person may have done, and most balanced people accept that people make mistakes and learn from them.
And this is the exact situation we have here. A guy has made a mistake, been punished for it, and now is being subject of a witch hunt when he tries to resume his career.
I'm not even interested in the argument about his guilt, that's secondary and will be dealt with in time, but the argument that he should be treated the same as other professions is bollocks and based on petty jealousy that he will retain some degree of his former earning power. Doctors/teachers have a specific position of responsibility towards the people in their care, of course they should be struck off if they fundamentally breach that trust. The guy kicks a football around for a living, and that profession as far as I know, poses no more risk to the general public, as striking off a window cleaner, a postman, or a joiner!
chedwin knew exactly what he was doing though
Ok, I'll. bite on whether I think he's guilty.........
Yes, I bet he did know exactly what he was doing, but if shagging a pissed up bird is an offence mate, we are all fucked aren't we? The opposite is also true. No joke here, I've woken up on one particular occasion so seriously disturbed at what I found next to me and told myself there is no fucking way I would have agreed to THAT, and honestly felt fucking violated, physically sick. If I'd gone to the nick and complained that I think I was raped because I didn't remember anything, I'd have been laughed out of the fucking place.
The whole premise of the case disturbs me to fuck when you put it like that, that there is absolutely no evidence that she didn't consent, evidence that lack of memory doesn't equate to lack of capacity to consent, yet a guy gets convicted of rape on the balance of probabilities. So whilst, yes, he knew what he was doing, what the fuck happened to 'beyond reasonable doubt?' There isn't even any evidence that a crime was actually committed!
This shit happens week in, week out up and down the country. In the morning, you dust yourself down, chalk it down to experience and move on. If he wasn't 1: male, 2: a footballer, this would never have gotten as far as it did in the first place, so is he not a victim of his own circumstances?
Lev Bronstein wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:Nigels Tackle wrote:Im_Spartacus wrote:Cocacolajojo wrote:This thread really made me depressed the first time around but thanks Slim, Hutch, Nigel and Lev for bringing some sense into the thread.
I work at uni where there is a strict non-racism policy. If I had been caught calling students racist words, I don't see a future for me in uni. I burnt that bridge. It's what I trained for my entire life by first going to regular school for twelve years and then at uni for 5 more before I started my PhD. That doesn't mean I have a right to stay at uni. It's back to square one for me. That doesn't mean I'm a bad person, it just means that I'm incompatible with uni for the rest of my life. I can probably work somewhere else and make a decent living, have a family, and so on. So can Evans, even if he doesn't play football again.
Having been thrown out of a country for unknowingly breaking a law, does that mean my wife loses the trust of every potential university employer in the world? Or, as happened, did a top tier university see fit to consider that against her ability to do the job? Technically, as a Finance Director any breach of trust or criminal offence, really should see her banished on your logic?
In your own field, if you are faculty or a researcher and guilty of racism, how would every university in the world know about this unless you underwent trial by media as Evans is now? And even if it was racism, good faculty will always get another chance because of the economic potential they bring to a university. A racist is a racist, but if he has the potential to find a cure for cancer, most Universities will overlook that for the greater good and their own personal enrichment.
But even 2nd rate faculty can improve a 3rd rate university! See the link here......surely it's the same thing.....the economic potential helps a potential employer see past the bad a person may have done, and most balanced people accept that people make mistakes and learn from them.
And this is the exact situation we have here. A guy has made a mistake, been punished for it, and now is being subject of a witch hunt when he tries to resume his career.
I'm not even interested in the argument about his guilt, that's secondary and will be dealt with in time, but the argument that he should be treated the same as other professions is bollocks and based on petty jealousy that he will retain some degree of his former earning power. Doctors/teachers have a specific position of responsibility towards the people in their care, of course they should be struck off if they fundamentally breach that trust. The guy kicks a football around for a living, and that profession as far as I know, poses no more risk to the general public, as striking off a window cleaner, a postman, or a joiner!
chedwin knew exactly what he was doing though
Ok, I'll. bite on whether I think he's guilty.........
Yes, I bet he did know exactly what he was doing, but if shagging a pissed up bird is an offence mate, we are all fucked aren't we? The opposite is also true. No joke here, I've woken up on one particular occasion so seriously disturbed at what I found next to me and told myself there is no fucking way I would have agreed to THAT, and honestly felt fucking violated, physically sick. If I'd gone to the nick and complained that I think I was raped because I didn't remember anything, I'd have been laughed out of the fucking place.
The whole premise of the case disturbs me to fuck when you put it like that, that there is absolutely no evidence that she didn't consent, evidence that lack of memory doesn't equate to lack of capacity to consent, yet a guy gets convicted of rape on the balance of probabilities. So whilst, yes, he knew what he was doing, what the fuck happened to 'beyond reasonable doubt?' There isn't even any evidence that a crime was actually committed!
This shit happens week in, week out up and down the country. In the morning, you dust yourself down, chalk it down to experience and move on. If he wasn't 1: male, 2: a footballer, this would never have gotten as far as it did in the first place, so is he not a victim of his own circumstances?
Well, if he wasn't "1. male" he might not have raped her.
There's shagging a pissed up bird who goes along with it, and one who is too far gone to know what she's doing. The law says it's rape in the second case. Do you honestly think that his lawyers didn't put the lass through the mill during the trial? The jury thought that it was "beyond all reasonable doubt", and so far that's the verdict that stands. Maybe you were in court every day of the trial: I wasn't, so I don't know if there was "absolutely no evidence that she didn't consent".
As for the "balance of probabilities", get real: in any trial, the jury have to decide to believe a witness or not. They chose not to believe Evans.
"There isn't any evidence that a crime was actually committed" - as Euripedes once said "against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain"
Wonderwall wrote:Nobody stopped Tyson returning to the ring (no pun intended).
DoomMerchant wrote:What I can't understand is that Chedwyn actually comes into the room... Sees his mate with his cock in her and then decides he should go down on her.
Could have eliminated the middleman and avoided jail time. Although maybe he enjoyed that aspect of prison life.
Cheers
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