Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

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Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:31 am

There are several topics discussing similar things & I was going to put this as a reply in the Kompany thread, but it also applies to the Yaya one, & the match thread, so I thought I'd put the whole thing together as one main problem, which it is imo.

When we play Silva & Yaya, for example, weare not playing one attacking/creative mid, we are playing two. Add Nasri, we are playing 3. Add Aguero/Dzeko, we have 5 attacking players in the side.

Yaya Toure, is Silva, deeper. That's it. In a nutshell. Silva is absolutely as much of a problem as Yaya; we have to bend the team out of shape to accomodate him, just as we try to do for Yaya. The difference is, that when Silva decides he can't be arsed running back, it's ok, but Yaya is seen as being better than him at it, & is deeper, so is expected to do ten times more work. Silva is not a 'lazy' creative player, but he's no Brian Robson either. Well neither is Yaya.

Both are not great without the ball but great on it. Yaya does plenty of covering but often leaves a hole, Silva does plenty of covering but often leaves a hole. They are both playmakers, not good defensively. Yaya just happens to be miles better than Silva at it, so is expected to do more of it. Yet he is also miles better at scoring goals.

There's the problem. Silva can't play deep, but can't (or more likely WON'T) hit a bulls arse with a banjo if you play him forward. Nasri is the same. If we use them as forwards, they don't score, but they are not great at defending, so can't be trusted deeper & neither can Yaya, defensively; he is a deep playmaker who does his bit for the defence, not a dominating centre mid. He is expected to do much more than Silva, every game, but he can't, he has a weakness there, just like Silva.

In order to accomodate these players in the same team, ALL OF THEM, including Aguero & Dzeko, need to bust their balls pressing when they lose the ball & get it back,in order to make up for their lack of individual defensive ability; they need to graft like fuck as a team, like Barca used to do & appear to be starting again.

Ours don't.

So we rely on inspired performances from each, keeping possession, plus great defending from Vinny etc, great forward play from Serge/Dzeko & hope players like Zabba, Milner, Fernandinho, Navas fill all the holes & get up & down the pitch. If we are uninspired, shit in possession or VK is a bit off his game, it doesn't work & we are shit. In Europe that happens, but rarely in the Prem; we play better football in possession. We rely on these players to play inspired possession football, & when they don't, we are shit. But usually, they do, because they are really fucking good, so we are often really fucking great.

In Europe, they don't perform so the whole system goes to shit. It's not Yaya's fault, or Vinny's fault, it's a question of balance & if we play below our ability, we are completely without balance & players are just fighting fires everywhere & we go to pieces.

The signings we make in the future, need to be made with this in mind imo.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Bridge'srightfoot » Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:36 pm

Silva has long had Immunity on here. He is imo one of the best creative players in the world but he has his weaknesses, he isn't ruthless enough. He's easily capable of getting 20 goals a season and being regarded in the tranny/Messi class and he has shown that he can shoot, but he'd still normally try and pass with an open net.

Great player, but if he sorts that side of his game out he'd be on another level.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:18 pm

Bridge'srightfoot wrote:Silva has long had Immunity on here. He is imo one of the best creative players in the world but he has his weaknesses, he isn't ruthless enough. He's easily capable of getting 20 goals a season and being regarded in the tranny/Messi class and he has shown that he can shoot, but he'd still normally try and pass with an open net.

Great player, but if he sorts that side of his game out he'd be on another level.


His failure to shoot always leaves the door open to a team getting back into it, when the game needs to be boxed off, he misses chances that Frank Lampard would finish for fun. Just shoot rather than cut back or pass as he did against Spurs the games would be cricket scores or easier. It goes back as far as the FA Cup final when clean through he waited for the defender to get back and then fooked it up. Great player with a flaw when it comes to finishing chances or teams off.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Sideshow Bob » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:26 pm

let's face it silva is at his peak and unlikely to change his style. he'll never score 20. never.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:31 pm

He doesn't have to if he plays to the standard he has for City, but the team has to balance around him & we are trying to balance it around him AND Yaya.

Both players are equally to blame for both our successes & our failures imo.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:36 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:He doesn't have to if he plays to the standard he has for City, but the team has to balance around him & we are trying to balance it around him AND Yaya.

Both players are equally to blame for both our successes & our failures imo.


And that is why when another team Like Chelsea last season and Bayern over the last few years have rode some luck against us with Pens not given and crap refs allowing no contact as with Bayern at home, we get done by not taking a game and forcing our will on a team, Bayern deal with us as they want. Lst night was a contrast that explains it all, One team is evil when it needs to be and we are weak.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby nottsblue » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:47 pm

Here's a curveball. Get rid of Yaya and play Nasri centrally and swap Silva for Isco?

Maybe even promote Pozo and see what stuff he is made of.

Just an idea. Love both Silva and Yaya but Ted was spot on when he said they are both responsible for success and more importantly, failure. Maybe the midfield needs a refresh
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:00 pm

I don't think they have let us down, quite the opposite; I think they have been legends. But I don't think it works in Europe, simply because the team doesn't play well enough to cover for them. Nasri is the same thing imo, then you have Aguero. If Aguero covered like Tevez used to, it would be less of a problem but look at his contribution to CSKA's goal; he just gives up. Pozo/Ambrose etc, in the morning, would have stopped the goal, before it reached Yaya territory. Strangely enough, Aguero did much more covering v Spurs than in Moscow, but that says everything about City in Europe.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:05 pm

Fernando is also finding it very hard to cover gaps and holes that were not mentioned to him when he signed, Yaya must be a mare to partner, as good as he is, he does have a reverse in Europe, he ran Chadli down on Saturday, not sure that would have happened if he had started...
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby gmercer1 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:05 pm

Someone mentioned it in another thread. We seem to be so slow at getting the ball forward that teams have loads of time to get men behind the ball and organise themselves.
When we played the rags last season we ripped them 3 new arseholes with the pace we played at. Everyone closing down fast. Problem is we seem to do it for a game or two then we fall back in to this tippy tappy football where 30 passes we end up closer to our own goal.
Don't get me wrong possession football is good but we are at our most scary when we play with pace.
Now look at the rags, they have been playing shite for a long time now and a few people I know we're moaning about how slow they were at getting the ball forward. They sign Di Maria and all of a sudden they look a faster more attacking team.
So do we need to make a new signing to get back to the fast pace of football? If so who would you sign? Reus?
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Im_Spartacus » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:10 pm

Ted's got a valid point, one that I think has been evident a fair few times over the years and has seen Silva & Nasri tried out on the wings etc as the midfield we have is fundamentally unbalanced because of the individuals who have to be shoehorned into it.

I think the answer is possibly quite extreme, and does really necessitate that a few of the sacred cows make way. I'm fairly sure Toure will be on his way either in January or in the summer, but I think the club should really give consideration to where Dave fits into the 'city system' moving forwards. He will always go down as an all time great for the club but he simply doesn't have the attributes to warrant a start in the centre of midfield, and he is not good enough to play behind the main striker as he is too shot shy. As much as Nasri doesn't have Silva's brain and quickness of feet, he actually has the ability to contribute in both positions and in fact excel as we saw at Arsenal and for large parts of last season.

By having Silva, you have to play him, but you can't get the best out of him in either position - he essentially derails the system.

We really need to decide what the city system is, and then work out the best available players at the club and outside the club to fill them, only then will we move forward. It looked like Manuel had it last season, but we seem to have gone a little backwards or lost our way a bit.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:14 pm

gmercer1 wrote:Someone mentioned it in another thread. We seem to be so slow at getting the ball forward that teams have loads of time to get men behind the ball and organise themselves.
When we played the rags last season we ripped them 3 new arseholes with the pace we played at. Everyone closing down fast. Problem is we seem to do it for a game or two then we fall back in to this tippy tappy football where 30 passes we end up closer to our own goal.
Don't get me wrong possession football is good but we are at our most scary when we play with pace.
Now look at the rags, they have been playing shite for a long time now and a few people I know we're moaning about how slow they were at getting the ball forward. They sign Di Maria and all of a sudden they look a faster more attacking team.
So do we need to make a new signing to get back to the fast pace of football? If so who would you sign? Reus?


Di Maria I hate to say it is a miss, Sterling would be fantastic for our style of play. Is Lopes going to make it.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Sideshow Bob » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:16 pm

gmercer1 wrote:Someone mentioned it in another thread. We seem to be so slow at getting the ball forward that teams have loads of time to get men behind the ball and organise themselves.
When we played the rags last season we ripped them 3 new arseholes with the pace we played at. Everyone closing down fast. Problem is we seem to do it for a game or two then we fall back in to this tippy tappy football where 30 passes we end up closer to our own goal.
Don't get me wrong possession football is good but we are at our most scary when we play with pace.
Now look at the rags, they have been playing shite for a long time now and a few people I know we're moaning about how slow they were at getting the ball forward. They sign Di Maria and all of a sudden they look a faster more attacking team.
So do we need to make a new signing to get back to the fast pace of football? If so who would you sign? Reus?


not sure reus can play centrally like di maria? plus he would be 26 by the time he played for us...that is too old imo. we need MF players in the 20-24 range.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby blues2win » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:16 pm

The funny thing is that Pellegrini wants to see his players pressing high up the pitch but he hasn't really got the personnel to play like that. It's not Dzeko's natural game even if there are games when he does work harder. Second half he was losing possession far too easily and not looking particularly arsed. Aguero does it in fits and starts but nowhere near consistently enough. The two forwards we've had who were perfect for this style would be Tevez ( nowhere near as lethal as Sergio though) and the Beast who wanted out to be fair probably for family reasons. Then look at Silva and Nasri. Neither press anywhere near enough when we haven't got the ball.

The problem with Yaya this season is twofold. He plays deep so he's expected to close down midfield runners but he just doesn't do it. Time and again you seem him close to an opposition midfielder and he just waves them goodbye. No attempt to close them down at all. I'm not talking about chasing back 30 yards but moving three yards to confront another player. There's really no excuse for that. Yesterday when he came on Fernandinho was hopeless too. Fernando absolutely gets it and looks a really good buy but he's asked to do a phenomenal amount. The other problem with Yaya is that he's not contributing anywhere near enough going forward this season. We all know he's phenomenally strong when dribbling; very hard to knock off the ball. He can pick a pass as well as anyone in the Premiership and he's got a helluva shot. Sorry but we just haven't seen enough of any of those qualities. They're not totally absent but not being displayed anywhere enough for me.

I agree about Silva yesterday although he did pick out Dzeko with a lovely through ball for the goal. Trouble is when he's facing a packed defence and midfield he persists in fiddling little balls though the middle when there really isn't any space. We were best in the first half when we overloaded on one side or the other with the full backs rather than trying miracle passes into tiny gaps through the middle.

Hoddle said yesterday that we didn't seem to have a clear plan on how to get turnover ball. One player would press here, another there but it wasn't co-ordinated. Not far from the truth I would say.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Hazy2 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:21 pm

blues2win wrote:The funny thing is that Pellegrini wants to see his players pressing high up the pitch but he hasn't really got the personnel to play like that. It's not Dzeko's natural game even if there are games when he does work harder. Second half he was losing possession far too easily and not looking particularly arsed. Aguero does it in fits and starts but nowhere near consistently enough. The two forwards we've had who were perfect for this style would be Tevez ( nowhere near as lethal as Sergio though) and the Beast who wanted out to be fair probably for family reasons. Then look at Silva and Nasri. Neither press anywhere near enough when we haven't got the ball.

The problem with Yaya this season is twofold. He plays deep so he's expected to close down midfield runners but he just doesn't do it. Time and again you seem him close to an opposition midfielder and he just waves them goodbye. No attempt to close them down at all. I'm not talking about chasing back 30 yards but moving three yards to confront another player. There's really no excuse for that. Yesterday when he came on Fernandinho was hopeless too. Fernando absolutely gets it and looks a really good buy but he's asked to do a phenomenal amount. The other problem with Yaya is that he's not contributing anywhere near enough going forward this season. We all know he's phenomenally strong when dribbling; very hard to knock off the ball. He can pick a pass as well as anyone in the Premiership and he's got a helluva shot. Sorry but we just haven't seen enough of any of those qualities. They're not totally absent but not being displayed anywhere enough for me.

I agree about Silva yesterday although he did pick out Dzeko with a lovely through ball for the goal. Trouble is when he's facing a packed defence and midfield he persists in fiddling little balls though the middle when there really isn't any space. We were best in the first half when we overloaded on one side or the other with the full backs rather than trying miracle passes into tiny gaps through the middle.

Hoddle said yesterday that we didn't seem to have a clear plan on how to get turnover ball. One player would press here, another there but it wasn't co-ordinated. Not far from the truth I would say.


Hoddle is right, if you look at Bayern last night they broke Roma, here is the managers comments after the defeat. The Giallorossi coach spoke after his side’s defeat to Bayern Munich:

"We collapsed tactically and in terms of our aggressiveness. We let a team like Bayern play; they have strong players and we knew that. I was the first to make mistakes; it’s not the players’ faults. The attitude and strategy in the first half were wrong.

"It’s a shame about the second half. We would’ve scored more than one goal had it not been for Neuer, who’s a great goalkeeper. I’m disappointed with the goals we conceded after the break; in the second half we wanted to show that the team still had pride.

"Now we need to pick ourselves up and focus on Serie A. The only positive is the draw between CSKA and City, which means that we’re second in the group.

"Tonight our opponents were better than us and, as I said, we played less well than we usually do. We were like spectators and I don’t like that. At the very least we need to be more compact and aggressive.

"We must accept this defeat because it shows us what steps we must take to get closer to the best teams in the world. We’re in second place and can still qualify for the next round, but not if we play like we did tonight.

"Losing to Bayern Munich is normal because they always win, but losing in this way hurts. We must show that we are mentally strong, starting on Saturday.

"What did we get wrong? Our strategy; we needed to be tighter and use our players to break out, because our individual qualities lend themselves to that style of play. It helped Bayern when we fell behind after ten minutes – we should’ve hung back and worked our way back into the game. We opened up too much."

He has summed us up as well.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Ted Hughes » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:29 pm

Im_Spartacus wrote:Ted's got a valid point, one that I think has been evident a fair few times over the years and has seen Silva & Nasri tried out on the wings etc as the midfield we have is fundamentally unbalanced because of the individuals who have to be shoehorned into it.

I think the answer is possibly quite extreme, and does really necessitate that a few of the sacred cows make way. I'm fairly sure Toure will be on his way either in January or in the summer, but I think the club should really give consideration to where Dave fits into the 'city system' moving forwards. He will always go down as an all time great for the club but he simply doesn't have the attributes to warrant a start in the centre of midfield, and he is not good enough to play behind the main striker as he is too shot shy. As much as Nasri doesn't have Silva's brain and quickness of feet, he actually has the ability to contribute in both positions and in fact excel as we saw at Arsenal and for large parts of last season.

By having Silva, you have to play him, but you can't get the best out of him in either position - he essentially derails the system.

We really need to decide what the city system is, and then work out the best available players at the club and outside the club to fill them, only then will we move forward. It looked like Manuel had it last season, but we seem to have gone a little backwards or lost our way a bit.


I agree with the point but we need to remember that it's in Europe where it comes unstuck. When we play our possession game, Silva is the conductor of an orchestra & we've won 2 titles in 3 years, turning over much better sides than Moscow or Roma.

We need to accept that chances are we are not going to perform the same way in Europe, so set out the game plan accordingly. Pep has done that twice v City; changed his formation/ team specifically because it's us & he knows what can happen.

We could sign players to give us more balance/options without having to chuck out the baby with the bathwater. Hazard & DiMaria would have done that for a start. Play Hazard as 2nd striker for example instead of Silva or even no strikers, like Pep has done, away from home in Europe.

A 433 Hazard Silva Dimaria in front of Fernandinho Fernando Milner. There are lots of ways we could experiment with it if we had the right options provided we acceppt that it needs fixing; something Bob & the Count have refused to accept.

Jovetic could be a factor in that kind of system.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby FA cup winners 2006 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:38 pm

After calming down after last nights debacle, i looked at the highlights again and think our problems are our mentality in games.

The second half last night was the worst i have seen in a long time. it was slow build up, lazy hit passes, players not communicating, making runs at wrong times and passes at wrong times. However straight after they equalised, our pace increased, more passes were sticking, we pressed high as a team but we were clearly panicking. if we had a professional mentality we would have either pressed on for more goals or shut up shop but either option involves hard work and concentration, we done neither and got rightly punished.

Another problem that keeps cropping up in our games is the amount of space we leave centrally for opposing players to drop into and turn and be running straight at our centre backs. This happened last night but also in the spurs and hull game. We seem to have a rigid 4-4-2 formation when we dont have the ball and we seem to stick with that formation and dont follow the players who drop deep. CSKA were able to play a ball from their fullbacks straight into the midfield to an unmarked man and only when he received the ball did Kompany, Mangala, or the midfielders rush to put pressure on him, Why wasnt he been marked more tightly in the first place.

I think Yaya might be taking a bit more flak as this all seems to be happening in his area but i think all we need is a formation tweaking to combat the space we provide in central areas. In the spurs game, the majority of their attacks came down the centre and i would say it was similar for CSKA last night. If this is the case in all games then we need to address it. I think instead of Milner and Silva falling out to the wings to protect the fullbacks, what we need is for Yaya and Fern to drop deeper cutting of the space in front of the centre backs and Silva and Milner to stay central providing a link to the attackers who can stay high up the pitch or one drop back in line with Silva and Milner. This should restrict the space offered in front of our centre backs and if the opposing team change their tactic and attack down the wings then we can revert to wingers defending.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby gmercer1 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:51 pm

Has anyone seen the players reaction after we scored our goals, there was hardly any celebration from any player. If that was in the Prem players would be jumping all over each other, not last night though. Not sure why, was it because they expected to win maybe?
Either way they need a kick up their backside and fast.
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby Im_Spartacus » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:08 pm

Ted Hughes wrote:Jovetic could be a factor in that kind of system.


I would like to think, if he can stay fit for a good chunk of this season, that he may replace Silva over the next 18 months. Looks a slim chance though, which is a shame, as he definitely has the talent to fill that awkward gap in the team
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Re: Yaya, Vinny, Silva, Nasri, Defence etc

Postby twosips » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:03 pm

One thing I agree on is the refreshing of the squad. I think every team should always look to refresh their front line every season to be honest. You become predictable otherwise and it's human nature to relax a little and it will always happen.

Can't help but think we should be making an effort to get that weirdly good 15 year old Norwegian kid - Odegaard. Reckon he'd actually create a bit of a buzz if we signed him. Also bring through Barker perhaps.
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