The Rise & Fall Of Borussia Dortmund

[Beefymcfc]

Just looking at the Bundesliga to see if it's the same old with Bayern running away with it and noticed how far BvB have fallen. After Bayern bailing them out back in 2003, Dortmund made a steady rise back to the top of the league culminating in them winning back-to-back league titles in 2010-2012. Fast forward a couple of years,and after being stripped of their prize players, they now find themsleves struggling at the wrong end of the table, just being beaten by FC Koln, very much another struggler in the league.

So what's happening over there, why have BvB fallen so far, so fast? Klopp is obviously a very good people person, tactically sound and has proved that he can make it in the Bundesliga. Is it due to Bayern pulling strings and taking their best players for peanuts or is it something more? I know there's a few of you who keep an eye on the Bundesliga, so what's the 'Bobby Moore'?

For reference:

Bayern Mun 8 19 20
Borussia Mönchengladbach 8 8 16
FSV Mainz 05 8 5 14
VfL Wolfsburg 8 4 14
TSG 1899 Hoffenheim 7 5 13
Bayer Levkn 8 2 13
Eintracht Frankfurt 7 2 12
Schalke 8 1 11
Hannover 96 8 -6 10
SC Paderborn 07 7 0 9
FC Köln 8 -1 9
FC Augsburg 8 -2 9
Hertha BSC 8 -5 8
Bor Dortmd 8 -4 7
VfB Stuttgart 8 -6 6
Sport-Club Freiburg 8 -4 5
Hamburger SV 7 -6 5
SV Werder Bremen 8 -12 4

[I Just Blue Myself]

Injuries.

[Clowncrete]

Their playing style causes a lots of injuries and is a lot more effective against teams which actually play and not park the bus.

[Tokyo Blue]

They'll have the biggest ground in the 2nd Bundesliga if they don't sort their shit out.

[Hutch's Shoulder]

They'll still spank Wenger's boys

[phips]

Injuries.

this.

i don't think they've had their entire first choice back line play together once this season. if they did, then it was Champions League game week 2.

but i watched the match yesterday and Roman made an awful mistake to gift Koln the winner.

the same defensive mentality that was there when they made it to the CL final and had a rock solid defense isn't there. they're making horrible mistakes in the back now.


obviously having a few of your best players sold hurts but, i would argue, it hasn't hurt as much as you might think. when they sold Kagawa to United they brought in Reus for less than what they got from United. When they sold Gotze they brought in PEA and Henrikh; both of whom individually are not as a good at Gotze but combined its an improvement. then, Lewandowski left and they brought back Kagawa and got Immobile and Ramos (both of whom either lead their respective leagues in scoring last season or were in the top 3 at least). crucially, they now have depth all over the place. a few seasons ago if they had to go to their bench (aside from Grosskreutz) they would be bringing on so-so players. now, they're sorta stacked. so that's a big boost. but thats why its even more of a shock that they're performing so poorly in the league. they dominated a semi-weakened Bayern squad in the German cup and are rolling in the CL. i'd also argue that Klopp is rotating his squad and tinkering too much with an eye on keeping his players fresh for the multiple competitions.

[Goaters 103]

There cant be any fall in Dortmunds fortunes because apparently everything they do is absolutely spellbinding according to the BBC, David Conn in the Guardian et al?

[PeterParker]

There was this rumor a while back that when BVB went almost bankrupt in 2003, Bayern paid their debt, but with a thew contractual points that allowed them to buy players from Dortmund, see the Goetze transfer.

However, this fall that they have might be the end of a real good era with Klopp. A lot of teams have this thing where they need some changes in the dressing room, just to move forward. Dortmund needs it, Arsenal needs it and we needed when Bobby left.

Sad to be honest, i really dislike Bayern, but when their historical rivals, Dortmund, Hamburg and Nurnberg look like this, it is really hard no to win everything.

Sadly, Dortmund had become Arsenal of Germany.

[Cocacolajojo1]

According to a mate of mine who's a Dortmund fan, we're seeing the limits of Klopp. He has a few good ideas but he has seemingly no ability to develop them further. I don't know how true that is though, I've not seen much or any of Dortmund this season. Anyone?

[mr_nool]

Although perhaps not being applicable to the BVB situation, there is quite a clear pattern in German football of clubs going all out to compete with Bayern - and sometimes even bagging a title or two - before inevitably dropping down the league table and battling relegation.

It happened to Dortmund before, ending in them almost going out of business, but it also happened to Hamburg, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, Schalke, Werder, etc. and going back even further to Kaiserslautern, Mönchengladbach and Köln.

[Beefymcfc]

Although perhaps not being applicable to the BVB situation, there is quite a clear pattern in German football of clubs going all out to compete with Bayern - and sometimes even bagging a title or two - before inevitably dropping down the league table and battling relegation.

It happened to Dortmund before, ending in them almost going out of business, but it also happened to Hamburg, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, Schalke, Werder, etc. and going back even further to Kaiserslautern, Mönchengladbach and Köln.

That seems a bit too coincidental. I know Bayern corner other clubs players but from what you're saying they have actually cornered the Bundesliga and hold all the aces when they are challenged.

[mr_nool]

Although perhaps not being applicable to the BVB situation, there is quite a clear pattern in German football of clubs going all out to compete with Bayern - and sometimes even bagging a title or two - before inevitably dropping down the league table and battling relegation.

It happened to Dortmund before, ending in them almost going out of business, but it also happened to Hamburg, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, Schalke, Werder, etc. and going back even further to Kaiserslautern, Mönchengladbach and Köln.

That seems a bit too coincidental. I know Bayern corner other clubs players but from what you're saying they have actually cornered the Bundesliga and hold all the aces when they are challenged.

I don't think there is any foul play. It's just the stark reality. It's impossible to compete with Bayern in the long run, so a few clubs put all their eggs in one basket to enjoy a season or two at the top and then fall back into obscurity.

You have a similar pattern, although less clear, in Spain, where the third club behind Barca and Real is constantly changing (Valencia, Villareal, Bilbao, Sevilla). However, Atletico have now done well for a longer than what is usually the case.

[mr_nool]

Although perhaps not being applicable to the BVB situation, there is quite a clear pattern in German football of clubs going all out to compete with Bayern - and sometimes even bagging a title or two - before inevitably dropping down the league table and battling relegation.

It happened to Dortmund before, ending in them almost going out of business, but it also happened to Hamburg, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, Schalke, Werder, etc. and going back even further to Kaiserslautern, Mönchengladbach and Köln.

That seems a bit too coincidental. I know Bayern corner other clubs players but from what you're saying they have actually cornered the Bundesliga and hold all the aces when they are challenged.

I don't think there is any foul play. It's just the stark reality. It's impossible to compete with Bayern in the long run, so a few clubs put all their eggs in one basket to enjoy a season or two at the top and then fall back into obscurity.

You have a similar pattern, although less clear, in Spain, where the third club behind Barca and Real is constantly changing (Valencia, Villareal, Bilbao, Sevilla). However, Atletico have now done well for a longer than what is usually the case.

Oh, and you have the same trend in the Dutch league. PSV and AJAX are constants at the top (although with an occasional horror season), but the clubs chasing them change every few years. The last ten years it's been Herenveen, then AZ, then Twente ...

[Beefymcfc]

Although perhaps not being applicable to the BVB situation, there is quite a clear pattern in German football of clubs going all out to compete with Bayern - and sometimes even bagging a title or two - before inevitably dropping down the league table and battling relegation.

It happened to Dortmund before, ending in them almost going out of business, but it also happened to Hamburg, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, Schalke, Werder, etc. and going back even further to Kaiserslautern, Mönchengladbach and Köln.

That seems a bit too coincidental. I know Bayern corner other clubs players but from what you're saying they have actually cornered the Bundesliga and hold all the aces when they are challenged.

I don't think there is any foul play. It's just the stark reality. It's impossible to compete with Bayern in the long run, so a few clubs put all their eggs in one basket to enjoy a season or two at the top and then fall back into obscurity.

You have a similar pattern, although less clear, in Spain, where the third club behind Barca and Real is constantly changing (Valencia, Villareal, Bilbao, Sevilla). However, Atletico have now done well for a longer than what is usually the case.

Oh, and you have the same trend in the Dutch league. PSV and AJAX are constants at the top (although with an occasional horror season), but the clubs chasing them change every few years. The last ten years it's been Herenveen, then AZ, then Twente ...

No mate, I wasn't saying that there was anything dodgy but I hear so many people saying that the Bundesliga is the place to be when it's the exact opposite. How can some class it as the best league when the reality is that there is only one winner? To a certain extent you could say the same of most leagues but at least with ours there's always been a chance for other clubs to take something, and even moreso now we've opened it up even more, but compared to the Bundesliga we're are almost wide open from top to bottom.

What amazes me is that a team can tap up a player, wait until he's out of contract, and then pick him up for fuck all without anything being said.

[TomS]

Dortmunds run is a mixture of all.
Injuries, Klopps first time down there in the table, unlucky and so on.
But the main Point I think is a bit similar to what Noolie wrote. They compete for a Long time- is every Player up to it when it´s just the borin´Bundesliga and not the Champions L.? And they got a few of their best Players bought out of their contracts and this time they couldn´t fill the gap...... Happens sometimes.

What worries me more is my beloved Werder Bremen, but that another Story....

[I Just Blue Myself]

No mate, I wasn't saying that there was anything dodgy but I hear so many people saying that the Bundesliga is the place to be when it's the exact opposite. How can some class it as the best league when the reality is that there is only one winner? To a certain extent you could say the same of most leagues but at least with ours there's always been a chance for other clubs to take something, and even moreso now we've opened it up even more, but compared to the Bundesliga we're are almost wide open from top to bottom.

1992–93 Werder Bremen
1993–94 Bayern Munich
1994–95 Borussia Dortmund
1995–96 Borussia Dortmund
1996–97 Bayern Munich
1997–98 1. FC Kaiserslautern
1998–99 Bayern Munich
1999–2000 Bayern Munich
2000–01 Bayern Munich
2001–02 Borussia Dortmund
2002–03 Bayern Munich
2003–04 Werder Bremen
2004–05 Bayern Munich
2005–06 Bayern Munich
2006–07 VfB Stuttgart
2007–08 Bayern Munich
2008–09 VfL Wolfsburg
2009–10 Bayern Munich
2010–11 Borussia Dortmund
2011–12 Borussia Dortmund
2012–13 Bayern Munich
2013–14 Bayern Munich

1992–93 Manchester United
1993–94 Manchester United
1994–95 Blackburn Rovers
1995–96 Manchester United
1996–97 Manchester United
1997–98 Arsenal
1998–99 Manchester United
1999–2000 Manchester United
2000–01 Manchester United
2001–02 Arsenal
2002–03 Manchester United
2003–04 Arsenal
2004–05 Chelsea
2005–06 Chelsea
2006–07 Manchester United
2007–08 Manchester United
2008–09 Manchester United
2009–10 Chelsea
2010–11 Manchester United
2011–12 Manchester City
2012–13 Manchester United
2013–14 Manchester City

Bayern Munich 12 league titles since the "PL era"
Manchester United 13 league titles since the "PL era"
Bundesliga 6 different champions
Premier League 5 different champions

Bayern may be running away with the league this season, but so did the scum in 12/13 & 99/00, Chelsea in 04/05. Arsenal were undefeated in 03/04! One team league! Wah wah!

What amazes me is that a team can tap up a player, wait until he's out of contract, and then pick him up for fuck all without anything being said.

As opposed to a player being tapped up, refusing to play/train/extend his contract, then transferred for a fee? If any of that amazes you, it may be time to put down those blinkers.

[Hazy2]

Imagine No Vinny, Silva, lose Aguero add that to Reus, Gudogen and a World Cup win, they will regroup and head for 4th place, the games they have lost have been mistake after mistake. That said all things Klopp has done have been from a background of hard work at Mainz . He will be fine as will BVBif they do not panic. 2 months ago they beat Bayern.

[LookMumImOnMCF.net]

Looked pretty good tonight.

Cheers.

[DoomMerchant]

Looked pretty good tonight.

Cheers.

I feel like such a hipster dpuche but I love Klopp. Love him. Love that teams fans and their colors and their story. Love it.

If he ever leaves there its a crime. A crime.

Cheers

[I Just Blue Myself]

They now have more points in the CL than the league.

P W D L F A GD Pts

8 2 1 5 10 14 −4 7

3 3 0 0 9 0 9 9