2 up front

[Nigels Tackle]

We won the league & League Cup mainly playing two up front & scored 150 goals but have lost or drawn the majority of games we have started with one up front.

So lets stop playing two up front.

Yep that makes fucking perfect sense.

How about we leave the Count to work out which formations & which players within those formations actually work & which don't, rather than making stupid rules about never playing a system which has been more successful for us than any other in the history of the fucking club ?

Amen

Things are not quite that simple.

Yes they absolutely are. As our manager is quoted, pointing out to people, above. We win games & score goals with two upfront. It may be the case that we are forced to adapt in some circumstances & it may be that we evolve into something else, but the idea of just dumping 2 upfront because we have difficulty in a few games is frankly, fucking stupid.

It may be the case that Fernando solves the problem, or Jovetic or that a slight adjustment to the way Milner of Nasri/Navas play is the answer. The Count has been at the club ONE SEASON & has not yet even had the chance to regularly field his planned team for more than an occasional game. Usually key players are injured as has been the case with Fernando.

Everyone including myself can say we think he should have started with this or that team, but Mancini tried all of those things suggested on here, in Europe, & we were total shit. It's not just about formation, it's fitness, blend, confidence etc etc.

When the Count started with 1 upfront, uptil now, we usually don't win. When we played 4321 under Mancini, we ran out of ideas & teams sussed us out. The Count changed that & we scored 150 goals. He is entitled to continue using that if it works better, especially as he is willing to change to different systems during the course of a game. We have not been at our best but nor have we been shit, apart from in Europe.

Teams in the Prem are making it difficult for us, as they should, it's not easy to defend the title. So far we are doing ok at it & are right in there.

honest question, how much influence do the spafia have on formation/selection!? with all the counts experience, i cannot imagine that he's not seeing what we're seeing.....

[Ted Hughes]

Txiki is a 433 man & has every other team at every level playing that way, so none.

The Count can obviously see what we see, but is trying to get the team to play his way rather than having to change. When he has changed it & started with 1 up top, we have rarely if ever won, so he probably regrets it each time he does it.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

On the BBC website just now:


Pellegrini stuck on two

Football
Posted at 11:37
Manuel Pellegrini
Tactics, tactics, tactics. We love debating them, don't we? Well, Manchester City manager Manuel Pellegrini is not for budging on his two-up-top formation, despite seeing his side beat Aston Villa on Saturday after they went to a five-man midfield.
"We have statistics of how many games we play with two and with one and the most amount of games we win is with two strikers and four midfielders," the Chilean told the Manchester Evening News.

Regardless of the tactical change, it still took a moment of individual brilliance to break the deadlock. The tactics can't really be credited with that can it?

And besides we created chances when we had two upfront, we were a bit unlucky with shots of the post and Villa's defenders getting some outstanding blocks in, 12 blocked shots according to one of the stats reports I read.

[bayblue]

We won the league & League Cup mainly playing two up front & scored 150 goals but have lost or drawn the majority of games we have started with one up front.

So lets stop playing two up front.

Yep that makes fucking perfect sense.

How about we leave the Count to work out which formations & which players within those formations actually work & which don't, rather than making stupid rules about never playing a system which has been more successful for us than any other in the history of the fucking club ?

Got some sympathy with your views but maybe question needs reframing in specific reference to Europe where we have continually struggled against better teams to get enough of the ball in the central areas. Don't think our two up top has helped us in those games.

[sweenyuk]

It is not as simple as the formation but who fits the role. Ed and Serg are too very different players, Serg wants the ball from behind to his feet, Ed wants it played in front to run on to or head in, so with these two as our front line we have no clear stratergy to work to where as when it was Serg and Tevez all balls were threaded though to feet.

[Original Dub]

I don't consider Aguero and Dzeko to be a "partnership"

I think Aguero and Negredo showed clear signs of forming a good understanding of each other, but not these two.

Whether that suited the 4-4-2 better last season and the amount of goals we scored before January, I'm not sure, but it could be the case.

[Mikhail Chigorin]

Perhaps it's not the two up front permutation that we need to be thinking about - personally I'd like to see us play with three out-and-out strikers, although that might be questionable in today's football - but maybe it should be about the four in midfield i.e. how they are set-up, Yaya's role and who plays with him, as well as how they inter-react with the defence.

As for playing with two strikers, I hope Pellegrini continues with this and we carry on scoring as many goals as possible. If this means we concede a few then, IMHO, so be it.

[PrezIke]

Ted, I generally agree with you but I also think if we are going exclusively with two up front for every game teams then know how to line up against us. As a result more and more have found a way to generally frustrate us in the attack, and then look to generate quick counter attacks as we push most of our team forward, particularly with our overlapping full backs and yaya's interest to push ahead.

It's still early enough, as you are right we were worse to start last season, but I think we became so successful last year because many teams had not come up with a good approach to deal with it as it was a new style we were implementing and we started to blend together. Now opposing managers have seemed to better figure ways to cope with our strategy. I also think the team had higher morale after a few whoopings we put on some teams. We are not really blending in a lot of players nor a new system, so that cannot really explain some of the struggles we have seen this year. We should be scoring more.

I still think we will be capable of goals with a 5 man midfield in some cases, as can be evidenced by Silva's effectiveness in the last game when he got to play as a #10 in the last 30 minutes or so. He was lethal in creating chances (the guardian even wrote about his performance in their 10 things to note in the league over the weekend). When we are being overrun in midfield and fernandinho is running his arse off backwards too many times and fouling that should begin to tell us that maybe we should consider mixing it up from time to time to throw of some of the astute managers that exist, and the very physical and strong defending many prrmier league teams are capable (despite being weak in attack)

I don't think there is an easy answer, but I think we may win more with a 4-3-3 formation, which really was what we ran late against Villa, or at least can throw off managers by lining up that way from time to time to make us less predictable. Honestly, that's all I am asking for, and I am a big supporter of Pellegrini as our manager, so I'm not saying he's a fool, but this may be his biggest weakness.

[PrezIke]

On the BBC website just now:


Pellegrini stuck on two

Football
Posted at 11:37
Manuel Pellegrini
Tactics, tactics, tactics. We love debating them, don't we? Well, Manchester City manager Manuel Pellegrini is not for budging on his two-up-top formation, despite seeing his side beat Aston Villa on Saturday after they went to a five-man midfield.
"We have statistics of how many games we play with two and with one and the most amount of games we win is with two strikers and four midfielders," the Chilean told the Manchester Evening News.

Regardless of the tactical change, it still took a moment of individual brilliance to break the deadlock. The tactics can't really be credited with that can it?

And besides we created chances when we had two upfront, we were a bit unlucky with shots of the post and Villa's defenders getting some outstanding blocks in, 12 blocked shots according to one of the stats reports I read.

From what I was seeing we seemed far more dangerous, and less vulnerable to counters after the change.

I recall more than once, after Fernando came on, that Villa tried to counter but he was there to eliminate the thread and then got us back on the attack.

To me, that changed the way the game was going. Maybe Villa was knackered but our possession was equally high as earlier, but seemed like it would cause more damage. And what do you know...we go and score twice in less than 10 minutes after playing that way for about 15-20 minutes.

[Ted Hughes]

Ted, I generally agree with you but I also think if we are going exclusively with two up front for every game teams then know how to line up against us. As a result more and more have found a way to generally frustrate us in the attack, and then look to generate quick counter attacks as we push most of our team forward, particularly with our overlapping full backs and yaya's interest to push ahead.

It's still early enough, as you are right we were worse to start last season, but I think we became so successful last year because many teams had not come up with a good approach to deal with it as it was a new style we were implementing and we started to blend together. Now opposing managers have seemed to better figure ways to cope with our strategy. I also think the team had higher morale after a few whoopings we put on some teams. We are not really blending in a lot of players nor a new system, so that cannot really explain some of the struggles we have seen this year. We should be scoring more.

I still think we will be capable of goals with a 5 man midfield in some cases, as can be evidenced by Silva's effectiveness in the last game when he got to play as a #10 in the last 30 minutes or so. He was lethal in creating chances (the guardian even wrote about his performance in their 10 things to note in the league over the weekend). When we are being overrun in midfield and fernandinho is running his arse off backwards too many times and fouling that should begin to tell us that maybe we should consider mixing it up from time to time to throw of some of the astute managers that exist, and the very physical and strong defending many prrmier league teams are capable (despite being weak in attack)

I don't think there is an easy answer, but I think we may win more with a 4-3-3 formation, which really was what we ran late against Villa, or at least can throw off managers by lining up that way from time to time to make us less predictable. Honestly, that's all I am asking for, and I am a big supporter of Pellegrini as our manager, so I'm not saying he's a fool, but this may be his biggest weakness.

I'm not suggesting exclusively starting with 2 up front. Not at all.

I'm saying that anyone who suggests we ditch it as a failure is talking bollocks. It is our most successful formation, ever. If we are forced to change it for some games, so be it. But writing it off as some are doing, is stupid. Also, changing a formation after an hour is not the same as starting with it. The players who come on are fresher for a start.

It could easily be the case that swapping Dzeko or Aguero for Jovetic or Iheanacho wins games just the same as changing formation. It is down to the oppo on the day.

City will win or almost win the Prem. If the players performed the same level in Europe, we will win or almost win the Champs Lg. Conversely, if we had played v Liverpool like we did v Roma, they would have torn us a new arsehole. Totti running through unchallenged ? Do me a favour. Imagine Sturridge & Sterling with that time & space ?

We are shit in europe. That's the problem. In the Prem, the problem is that Chelsea are stronger than last season. But so are we imo. It's a competition, as if should be, every year.

Nobody should get a free ride like those rag wankers have done, but if it was upto Arsenal, someone would every season, mainly the rags. Thank fuck for City (& Chelsea).

We are a fucking good side & we will get better learning different team lineups & formations but often with 2 up front.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

On the BBC website just now:


Pellegrini stuck on two

Football
Posted at 11:37
Manuel Pellegrini
Tactics, tactics, tactics. We love debating them, don't we? Well, Manchester City manager Manuel Pellegrini is not for budging on his two-up-top formation, despite seeing his side beat Aston Villa on Saturday after they went to a five-man midfield.
"We have statistics of how many games we play with two and with one and the most amount of games we win is with two strikers and four midfielders," the Chilean told the Manchester Evening News.

Regardless of the tactical change, it still took a moment of individual brilliance to break the deadlock. The tactics can't really be credited with that can it?

And besides we created chances when we had two upfront, we were a bit unlucky with shots of the post and Villa's defenders getting some outstanding blocks in, 12 blocked shots according to one of the stats reports I read.

From what I was seeing we seemed far more dangerous, and less vulnerable to counters after the change.

I recall more than once, after Fernando came on, that Villa tried to counter but he was there to eliminate the thread and then got us back on the attack.

To me, that changed the way the game was going. Maybe Villa was knackered but our possession was equally high as earlier, but seemed like it would cause more damage. And what do you know...we go and score twice in less than 10 minutes after playing that way for about 15-20 minutes.

No doubt we were less vulnerable to counters. I couldn't believe he had replaced Fernandinho with Lampard, Yaya and Frank as a midfield two is just asking for trouble, I was delighted when I saw Fernando coming on.

But I don't think we looked any more threatening when the change was made, we had been creating chances up to that point anyway, it was only Villa's body on the line style defending that was keeping us out. It was always going to take either a lapse in concentration from them or a moment of individual brilliance to get through. Thankfully Yaya provided the latter.

[Hazy2]

We will always look to play our football and in turn we allow the opos to play, some hurt us as in Europe and mostly Premier teams are deep and cannot hit a killer pass or as we saw with Villa run 60 yards and fail to finish, that happened twice. I love our style it does though need a tweak for Roma and Bayern, maybe we should be better at doing it and not gonna change things to get through, Real Madrid seem to want a tear up with anyone, end to end which shocked Bayern last season for example are were on top if not getting away with it by doing enough with a second leg to come, Madrds made hay and walloped them, I think we need to smash a team to make the leap. I just fear Roma might just choke us and get through. For the players we have no team should scare us.

[Ted Hughes]

We will always look to play our football and in turn we allow the opos to play, some hurt us as in Europe and mostly Premier teams are deep and cannot hit a killer pass or as we saw with Villa run 60 yards and fail to finish, that happened twice. I love our style it does though need a tweak for Roma and Bayern, maybe we should be better at doing it and not gonna change things to get through, Real Madrid seem to want a tear up with anyone, end to end which shocked Bayern last season for example are were on top if not getting away with it by doing enough with a second leg to come, Madrds made hay and walloped them, I think we need to smash a team to make the leap. I just fear Roma might just choke us and get through. For the players we have no team should scare us.

That's the point the Count is making when he talks about playing like a 'big' team. Enforcing our will on the oppo. In Europe though, the players aren't doing it.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

It's interesting when we switch in a game from the obvious 2 up front plan to having Yaya with a free attacking role or even Frank to a degree.

With Yaya I suppose he is still involved in midfield but with basically no standard midfield or defensive duties.With Frank is not quite the same but he clearly has been given full license to get into goalscoring positions so it's hardly just a case of packing the midfield when he comes on. He actually missed one great chance before we scored and was in the box ( I think ) when Yaya scored.For the Aguero goal he made a great run into the box which helped create space for Aguero meaning he only had one man to deal with instead of the usual 2 or 3.

[Hazy2]

It's interesting when we switch in a game from the obvious 2 up front plan to having Yaya with a free attacking role or even Frank to a degree.

With Yaya I suppose he is still involved in midfield but with basically no standard midfield or defensive duties.With Frank is not quite the same but he clearly has been given full license to get into goalscoring positions so it's hardly just a case of packing the midfield when he comes on. He actually missed one great chance before we scored and was in the box ( I think ) when Yaya scored.For the Aguero goal he made a great run into the box which helped create space for Aguero meaning he only had one man to deal with instead of the usual 2 or 3.

Yaya stepping Delph was ironic, he produced a class moment and a finish, Delph had done that and that once or twice to him and Ferdi,Yaya in the last third is my wish when it is a tight game.

[zuricity]

2 up front ?

For some reason a young and nubile Gretchen... Greta Scacchi comes to mind.

[Sparklehorse]

If we'd scored our two goals in the first ten minutes, we wouldn't be having this debate. I think Dzeko and Aguero both tend to believe they can score when they have the ball at their feet in the penalty area, so distributing is not often on the agenda resulting in what seems to be a poor understanding between them.
We had a huge percentage of the possession away from home, 27 attempts at goal, hit the woodwork twice and scored twice, i would settle for that every week and we'd score more than 2 most games.
We had a dodgy 10 mins in the second half and it was identified and put right very quickly.
I thought we were terrific for the most part.

[phips]

while im a proponent of the 5-man midfield, im starting to think that our current issue with the system is, as others have said, the Dzeko-Aguero partnership. When Jovetic and Aguero were injured last year the Negredo-Dzeko partnership up top flourished..until Beast's form dipped.

im very inclined to see Dzeko and Jovetic play together. Aguero doesn't like passing to Dzeko.

[Foreverinbluedreams]

while im a proponent of the 5-man midfield, im starting to think that our current issue with the system is, as others have said, the Dzeko-Aguero partnership. When Jovetic and Aguero were injured last year the Negredo-Dzeko partnership up top flourished..until Beast's form dipped.

im very inclined to see Dzeko and Jovetic play together. Aguero doesn't like passing to Dzeko.

It didn't flourish at all, it was just as bad as Dzeko/Aguero if not worse.

Aguero/Negredo was a proper partnership, they provided the perfect foil for each other and linked up very well, their instincts complimented each other.

There seems to be some promise in the Jovetic/Dzeko pairing.

[phips]

while im a proponent of the 5-man midfield, im starting to think that our current issue with the system is, as others have said, the Dzeko-Aguero partnership. When Jovetic and Aguero were injured last year the Negredo-Dzeko partnership up top flourished..until Beast's form dipped.

im very inclined to see Dzeko and Jovetic play together. Aguero doesn't like passing to Dzeko.

It didn't flourish at all, it was just as bad as Dzeko/Aguero if not worse.

Aguero/Negredo was a proper partnership, they provided the perfect foil for each other and linked up very well, their instincts complimented each other.

There seems to be some promise in the Jovetic/Dzeko pairing.

i seem to remember Negredo and Dzeko banging in the goals when they played together