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Sideshow Bob wrote:

Cocacolajojo wrote:
Here are some stats on goalkeepers by the way:

http://www.manchesterlalala.com/best-goalkeepers-premier-league-2013-14/#.VBVw1xbWd8o

thank you for posting that link. I'd love to see the hart lickers explain how their golden boy doesn't rank even among the top fucking half of PL keepers in terms of saving shots - something at which he is supposedly WORLD CLASS??? he is rubbish and not nearly good enough for one of the top sides in europe.

that shots saved per ratio is laughable. it shows he only concedes less because of the team in front of him.

thank you for posting that link. I'd love to see the hart lickers explain how their golden boy doesn't rank even among the top fucking half of PL keepers in terms of saving shots - something at which he is supposedly WORLD CLASS??? he is rubbish and not nearly good enough for one of the top sides in europe.

No worries mate.

But the problem with that figure is that only Cech from last year's top four is in that figure of top shot stoppers because the top teams don't concede that many shots. As far as I can see, only three of the top seven teams' goalkeepers are in there, which goes to show that it's a tricky stat. That Cech is in there is very probably caused by the fact that he had to play with Luiz. Top teams' keepers are bound to have a lower ratio because the goals they concede will have a bigger impact as they receive less shots.

There's the saves per clear chance (I have no idea how a clear chance is defined but it's better than this other ratio) ratio as well, which I have yet to find. That should be more revealing.

Cocacolajojo wrote:

thank you for posting that link. I'd love to see the hart lickers explain how their golden boy doesn't rank even among the top fucking half of PL keepers in terms of saving shots - something at which he is supposedly WORLD CLASS??? he is rubbish and not nearly good enough for one of the top sides in europe.

No worries mate.

But the problem with that figure is that only Cech from last year's top four is in that figure of top shot stoppers because the top teams don't concede that many shots. As far as I can see, only three of the top seven teams' goalkeepers are in there, which goes to show that it's a tricky stat. That Cech is in there is very probably caused by the fact that he had to play with Luiz. Top teams' keepers are bound to have a lower ratio because the goals they concede will have a bigger impact as they receive less shots.

There's the saves per clear chance (I have no idea how a clear chance is defined but it's better than this other ratio) ratio as well, which I have yet to find. That should be more revealing.

That's the thing with that saves per shot stat, it doesn't breakdown what type of shots or saves, for example there's a big difference with someone hitting a speculative shot from 20 yards and a shot coming from a one on one situation. We're most likely to face more of the latter due to most opposition playing on the counter against us.

Wonderwall wrote:you see top keepers beaten through the legs all the time. It is a difficult position as you are always under scrutiny as a GK makes an error, there is rarely someone there to rescue them. he is being blamed for going to ground to early against Wilshite, for not closing his legs against stoke.... etc.

He is a Top keeper and I like and trust him. However, his distribution always has been and still is shocking.

If his ability on the ball was better we would have more flow and the last 10 mins we had at the Emirates would have seen us tear them a new hole he runs to the edge of the box feints to dish it runs around again, at the speed of the game that is 5/10 secs and the team is almost back, frustrates the fuck our of me, must drive players insane. Slow mind for a top player, Counter attack on a dead on there feet Arsenal is crucial and a sin to have a keeper who slows is all down, when that is the last thing you want.

Cocacolajojo wrote:But the problem with that figure is that only Cech from last year's top four is in that figure of top shot stoppers because the top teams don't concede that many shots.

ok that is an interesting idea and may well be true. but we're repeatedly told that shot stopping is hart's ace in the hole, the ONE thing that makes it worthwhile to overlook his poor distribution, poor decision making, and poor command of the area. if he is actually that good at stopping shots, I would have expected him at least to feature in the top ten?? imo he was once a good shot stopper but that was years ago. now? he's below average, and his errors have cost/are costing us too many points in the PL, not to mention the fact that we might have topped the group in CL and avoided barca last season.

ok that is an interesting idea and may well be true. but we're repeatedly told that shot stopping is hart's ace in the hole, the ONE thing that makes it worthwhile to overlook his poor distribution, poor decision making, and poor command of the area. if he is actually that good at stopping shots, I would have expected him at least to feature in the top ten?? imo he was once a good shot stopper but that was years ago. now? he's below average, and his errors have cost/are costing us too many points in the PL, not to mention the fact that we might have topped the group in CL and avoided barca last season.

I can give you this after some more search: the general consensus on all sites that tend to use or gather keeper data say he's not very good at stopping long shots, which I've never thought about before.

I don't agree that he's below average, I think he's above average and I trust him. I don't think he's bad at crosses and commanding his area, at least not as bad as he used to be (not the best of praises I know but I'm rarely nervous about crosses any more). However, he needs to start working on his flaws and become a more complete goalkeeper, as I think our needs for a goalkeeper has changed since he broke through. Back in the days we were happy with a shot stopper and we were under a lot more pressure. Four years on and we are now looking for something else and he needs to adapt to that.

What I've liked about him is that he's always been one to improve on mistakes after he made them. He should also know that he's lost a bit of the aura of invulnerability he had before. He needs to regain that. Otherwise it doesn't matter. He's only 27, he should be developing as we speak and prove the doubters. I've not seen that from him yet.

Cocacolajojo wrote:

ok that is an interesting idea and may well be true. but we're repeatedly told that shot stopping is hart's ace in the hole, the ONE thing that makes it worthwhile to overlook his poor distribution, poor decision making, and poor command of the area. if he is actually that good at stopping shots, I would have expected him at least to feature in the top ten?? imo he was once a good shot stopper but that was years ago. now? he's below average, and his errors have cost/are costing us too many points in the PL, not to mention the fact that we might have topped the group in CL and avoided barca last season.

I can give you this after some more search: the general consensus on all sites that tend to use or gather keeper data say he's not very good at stopping long shots, which I've never thought about before.

I don't agree that he's below average, I think he's above average and I trust him. I don't think he's bad at crosses and commanding his area, at least not as bad as he used to be (not the best of praises I know but I'm rarely nervous about crosses any more). However, he needs to start working on his flaws and become a more complete goalkeeper, as I think our needs for a goalkeeper has changed since he broke through. Back in the days we were happy with a shot stopper and we were under a lot more pressure. Four years on and we are now looking for something else and he needs to adapt to that.

What I've liked about him is that he's always been one to improve on mistakes after he made them. He should also know that he's lost a bit of the aura of invulnerability he had before. He needs to regain that. Otherwise it doesn't matter. He's only 27, he should be developing as we speak and prove the doubters. I've not seen that from him yet.

Good post, see people that's objectivity.

Cocacolajojo wrote:

ok that is an interesting idea and may well be true. but we're repeatedly told that shot stopping is hart's ace in the hole, the ONE thing that makes it worthwhile to overlook his poor distribution, poor decision making, and poor command of the area. if he is actually that good at stopping shots, I would have expected him at least to feature in the top ten?? imo he was once a good shot stopper but that was years ago. now? he's below average, and his errors have cost/are costing us too many points in the PL, not to mention the fact that we might have topped the group in CL and avoided barca last season.

I can give you this after some more search: the general consensus on all sites that tend to use or gather keeper data say he's not very good at stopping long shots, which I've never thought about before.

I don't agree that he's below average, I think he's above average and I trust him. I don't think he's bad at crosses and commanding his area, at least not as bad as he used to be (not the best of praises I know but I'm rarely nervous about crosses any more). However, he needs to start working on his flaws and become a more complete goalkeeper, as I think our needs for a goalkeeper has changed since he broke through. Back in the days we were happy with a shot stopper and we were under a lot more pressure. Four years on and we are now looking for something else and he needs to adapt to that.

What I've liked about him is that he's always been one to improve on mistakes after he made them. He should also know that he's lost a bit of the aura of invulnerability he had before. He needs to regain that. Otherwise it doesn't matter. He's only 27, he should be developing as we speak and prove the doubters. I've not seen that from him yet.

Problem for Joe is, unless he does put in some good performances, he will be replaced by Big Willy and if will stands up to the task and is hard to beat, then he will remain the 1st choice stopper

MilnersJaw wrote:

Sideshow Bob wrote:

Cocacolajojo wrote:
Here are some stats on goalkeepers by the way:

http://www.manchesterlalala.com/best-goalkeepers-premier-league-2013-14/#.VBVw1xbWd8o

thank you for posting that link. I'd love to see the hart lickers explain how their golden boy doesn't rank even among the top fucking half of PL keepers in terms of saving shots - something at which he is supposedly WORLD CLASS??? he is rubbish and not nearly good enough for one of the top sides in europe.

that shots saved per ratio is laughable. it shows he only concedes less because of the team in front of him.

Thanks for the link, I'm always on the lookout for independent reliable sites for football info. The site you got the info. "Manchester LaLaLa" is a rag blog.
The main site where the stats are from, "squawka", seems questionable.
For this season it shows the following performance scores for this season: 1. Chelsea 1,532; 2. Rags 1,272; 3. Southampton 1,075; 4. Spurs 1,023 5. Arsenal 928; 6. Stoke 885; 7. Liverpool 872; 8. Swansea 842; 9. City 756
Vincent Kompany is ranked 80th in the list of PL defenders, Zaba is last 118th, while Phil Jones is ranked 3rd.
There might be some good stuff there but on first glance it seems typical of the "rag loving, City bashing" media.

Squawka, Whoscored and Kicker, and a lot of other sites, seem to use some sort of point system. I usually disregard them, as well as that odd fifaranking crap. I personally stay away from those as I have little idea of how reliable they are. They're just weird, IMO.

Hart simply isn't as good as he was a couple of years ago. All these great games he had that folks remember are from two or more years ago. Goalies are supposed to improve with age, not regress.

Four goals conceded this season against how many shots? Seven? Ten? Very poor ratio.

nottsblue wrote:Hart simply isn't as good as he was a couple of years ago. All these great games he had that folks remember are from two or more years ago. Goalies are supposed to improve with age, not regress.

Four goals conceded this season against how many shots? Seven? Ten? Very poor ratio.

Must agree on that, didn't used to worry about their attacks as Joe would invariably deal with any shots. These days even back passes worry me in case he miss kicks. He hasn't & may never, but that's my level of faith these days. Just waiting for the mistake.

shortagain wrote:

nottsblue wrote:Hart simply isn't as good as he was a couple of years ago. All these great games he had that folks remember are from two or more years ago. Goalies are supposed to improve with age, not regress.

Four goals conceded this season against how many shots? Seven? Ten? Very poor ratio.

Must agree on that, didn't used to worry about their attacks as Joe would invariably deal with any shots. These days even back passes worry me in case he miss kicks. He hasn't & may never, but that's my level of faith these days. Just waiting for the mistake.

I didn't even think he was that good a couple of seasons ago - more the case that he had the odd good game and some bum ones like nowadays combined with a natural tendency from those who would prefer to see him in his best light choosing to use a selective memory. He's a mid-table keeper at a top table club - we deserve better and we'll get better.

Herb wrote:

shortagain wrote:

nottsblue wrote:Hart simply isn't as good as he was a couple of years ago. All these great games he had that folks remember are from two or more years ago. Goalies are supposed to improve with age, not regress.

Four goals conceded this season against how many shots? Seven? Ten? Very poor ratio.

Must agree on that, didn't used to worry about their attacks as Joe would invariably deal with any shots. These days even back passes worry me in case he miss kicks. He hasn't & may never, but that's my level of faith these days. Just waiting for the mistake.

I didn't even think he was that good a couple of seasons ago - more the case that he had the odd good game and some bum ones like nowadays combined with a natural tendency from those who would prefer to see him in his best light choosing to use a selective memory. He's a mid-table keeper at a top table club - we deserve better and we'll get better.

name them then... other than neuer and courtois (who has conceded 6 already this season) there aren't really many better

You don't need to look far - DeGea (twat that he is) is already better than dozy Joe by a country mile.

Herb wrote:You don't need to look far - DeGea (twat that he is) is already better than dozy Joe by a country mile.

I wouldn't swap joe for him

Maybe Joe was overrated. He had two incredible seasons, at Birmingham and then the first one at us + half of the winning season in 2012.

I don't think he can get any better than he is right now, but he can be worse. He is a good keeper, but i don't think he is in top four in the Premiership.

Maybe i am biased, but i was convinced at that time and still am now, that we should had choose Kasper instead of Joey. He is better than Joe, but he gets injured often, while Joe wasen't injured even once in the past 2 or 3 years, which means his training is very profesional and he knows what he is doing.

Nigels Tackle wrote:

Herb wrote:You don't need to look far - DeGea (twat that he is) is already better than dozy Joe by a country mile.

I wouldn't swap joe for him

I would...you wanker.

He is far better than Joe.

Great game tonight credit where it is due.

On nights like these, Joe's arguably one of the elite keepers around.