Southampton Academy

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

They seem to have had endless stream of top youngsters coming through there in past decade or so. Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, Theo Wallcott, Luke Shaw, Adam Lallana and of course Gareth Bale. Does anyone have any idea how they are doing it? I haven't seen any "Ajax Way" styled books about it and only saw some shallow article about it in some footie mag (FourFourTwo?) some years back.

So does anyone have any idea?

[nottsblue]

Probably a number of reasons.

1 The over-riding factor is probably a really good coaching set up where from an early age the kids are taught well by experienced and/or knowledgeable coaches and they also cared for off the field. Schooling is vital and perhaps they keep kids grounded and have normal routines?

2 I believe there is a rule regarding an hours drive to a club where kids under 16 have to live within an hours drive of the club. This gives Saints a massive catchment and they don't have much competition, or at least haven't had in the last few years with Pompeys meltdown and Brighton not even having a ground until recently

3 Being in administration sharpens the need to bring your own players through as you can't buy anyone.

4 They are a Premier league club with a reputation for playing youngsters. This might count a lot when parents are choosing where to send their kids. They know if they are half decent they could get a shot.

5 Brilliant scouting network. Maybe they have a more proactive approach than other clubs

Just a few ideas. Doubt any of them are the deciding factor but probably a combination of a couple of them

[nottsblue]

Forgot to add, having seen the plans for the City academy on the Stadium Tour we will be reaping huge dividends on the future. The sheer size and scale of the academy together with the detail that has gone into it will ensure we will have top notch prospects coming through

[ruralblue]

Could be larger catchment area or could be better scouting at younger ages. I know round here for some strange reason the kids get scouted at a very young age and there seems mass concentration on watching the 7 and 8 year old so and not so much 9, 10 or 11 year old kids. I have heard scouts say if kids aren't showing great skill by the time they are 8 then they would take make it. What then happens to late starters or maybe kids who don't gain confidence till a bit later on.

[Nigels Tackle]

catchment area advantage?!
that'll be on account of all the talent living in the english channel?
soton have a good record because

1. they have a good youth set up (coaching and scouting)
2. they give young players a chance - their financial situation up to the takeover forced them to

btw - lallana came through from bournemouth

[Bridge'srightfoot]

I think that the main reason is their willingness to just throw players in there and the confidence that it gives them. I always feel we are so hesitant to give youth a chance. I mean Negredo got injured playing a game we were 8-0 up on aggregate, we should have been seeing our youngsters!
Marco Lopes and perhaps players like Devante Cole would probably be regularly in and around the first team squad by now and a lot further ahead with their development if they played for them.
I don't necessarily think that their is a disproportionate amount of quality players born in that area.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

catchment area advantage?!
that'll be on account of all the talent living in the english channel?
soton have a good record because

1. they have a good youth set up (coaching and scouting)
2. they give young players a chance - their financial situation up to the takeover forced them to

btw - lallana came through from bournemouth

Llana was 12 when he joined Southampton so can't agree with that.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Could be larger catchment area or could be better scouting at younger ages. I know round here for some strange reason the kids get scouted at a very young age and there seems mass concentration on watching the 7 and 8 year old so and not so much 9, 10 or 11 year old kids. I have heard scouts say if kids aren't showing great skill by the time they are 8 then they would take make it. What then happens to late starters or maybe kids who don't gain confidence till a bit later on.

That's absolutely horrible approach. Ages 6 to 12 are all about creating foundation for basic skill set like passing, shooting and running. Honing individual skills.That age group should NOT under any circumstance be about excellence on the pitch.

[Nigels Tackle]

catchment area advantage?!
that'll be on account of all the talent living in the english channel?
soton have a good record because

1. they have a good youth set up (coaching and scouting)
2. they give young players a chance - their financial situation up to the takeover forced them to

btw - lallana came through from bournemouth

Llana was 12 when he joined Southampton so can't agree with that.

my bad. had assumed the £6m+ b'mouth are picking up from his tfr to liverpool was as a result of him having been there until he was at least 16....

[DoomMerchant]

Could be larger catchment area or could be better scouting at younger ages. I know round here for some strange reason the kids get scouted at a very young age and there seems mass concentration on watching the 7 and 8 year old so and not so much 9, 10 or 11 year old kids. I have heard scouts say if kids aren't showing great skill by the time they are 8 then they would take make it. What then happens to late starters or maybe kids who don't gain confidence till a bit later on.

That's absolutely horrible approach. Ages 6 to 12 are all about creating foundation for basic skill set like passing, shooting and running. Honing individual skills.That age group should NOT under any circumstance be about excellence on the pitch.

I disagree. My son is 8 and his coaches are Columbian and he's absolutely learning how to play the game. Shooting and passing and shit he already knows. He's learning about space and positioning and how to play one touch on the floor football. Next summer he will be in Columbia for a month at an academy there.

Basically his coach tells us that by age 13 if they don't have it they never will.

[LookMumImOnMCF.net]

One thing I don't think anyone's mentioned is the fact that most (all?) of these players played for Southampton in lower divisions and from a quick check it doesn't look like many went on loan away for very long.

I think there's a lot to be said about progressing at your own club, perhaps in a league where there's less focus and pressure young player can concentrate on their game rather than having to adapt to the 3rd or 4th loan club before they turn 20.

From a club's perspective, it's got to be a lot harder to just chuck someone in the Prem too.

[Dunnylad]

One thing I don't think anyone's mentioned is the fact that most (all?) of these players played for Southampton in lower divisions and from a quick check it doesn't look like many went on loan away for very long.

I think there's a lot to be said about progressing at your own club, perhaps in a league where there's less focus and pressure young player can concentrate on their game rather than having to adapt to the 3rd or 4th loan club before they turn 20.

From a club's perspective, it's got to be a lot harder to just chuck someone in the Prem too.

So Dyke's b-team idea would be a perfect solution - what will be interesting is how some of them fair at Liverpool as I don't think they have the quality if Bale / Ramsey etc and could well struggle to replicate anything like their Southampton levels of performance

[lets all have a disco]

Large catchment area plus nobody else competing for players as they are the top dogs on the South Coast they also aren't afraid to blood players.

Pretty simple really.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

Could be larger catchment area or could be better scouting at younger ages. I know round here for some strange reason the kids get scouted at a very young age and there seems mass concentration on watching the 7 and 8 year old so and not so much 9, 10 or 11 year old kids. I have heard scouts say if kids aren't showing great skill by the time they are 8 then they would take make it. What then happens to late starters or maybe kids who don't gain confidence till a bit later on.

That's absolutely horrible approach. Ages 6 to 12 are all about creating foundation for basic skill set like passing, shooting and running. Honing individual skills.That age group should NOT under any circumstance be about excellence on the pitch.

I disagree. My son is 8 and his coaches are Columbian and he's absolutely learning how to play the game. Shooting and passing and shit he already knows. He's learning about space and positioning and how to play one touch on the floor football. Next summer he will be in Columbia for a month at an academy there.

Basically his coach tells us that by age 13 if they don't have it they never will.

For example Spanish Soccer Coaching Bible and some book about Ajax Academy coaching (can't remember the name unfortunately) spesifically says that kids shouldn't be bothered with complicated tactical things like passing to the space or more complicated off the ball movement than running in straight lines before age of 11. The way they see it is that kids have certain ages when they are sensitive to certain skills. That age should be all about running with the ball, dribbling, shooting and technique of passing (not tactics). Players should be encouraged to take on other players regardless if it's anyway usefull to the outcome of the game. Let the kids themselves figure it out what is usefull and what is not. If you do things when kids are not sensitive about it you will only teach them ways that are really hard to correct in the future.

By the age of 13 you can see which boys definitely do NOT have it. That is, I'd say, 40 to 50 % of the age group. That leaves you with massive pool of kids whose development is unpredictable at best, complete crap shoot at worst. I dare you to check boy level (roughly 14 to 17) national teams of any given country from the past even from major international tournaments and see for yourself how many of them made it to top. You will be shocked to find out that even in best teams you will only recognize couple of names. I've seen super talented youth players who never amounted anything and I've seen kids who never stood out at the age of 15 and turned out to be professional footballers.

Also, no one ever really "knows" passing and shooting. No one does it perfect. That goes from any three year old just starting out to Andrea Pirlo. Only sure thing I know about player development is that they have this deep inner feeling that they never are perfect on anything and keep on practising.

[Wonderwall]

grass roots in this country are looking at moving way from competitive football and league tables until the age of 14. This approach has been the way they have done it in spain for many years. Its about letting the kids express themselves and not about results, there are pros and cons to both competitive and non competitive football. At least this way the parents might behave more.

[DoomMerchant]

Could be larger catchment area or could be better scouting at younger ages. I know round here for some strange reason the kids get scouted at a very young age and there seems mass concentration on watching the 7 and 8 year old so and not so much 9, 10 or 11 year old kids. I have heard scouts say if kids aren't showing great skill by the time they are 8 then they would take make it. What then happens to late starters or maybe kids who don't gain confidence till a bit later on.

That's absolutely horrible approach. Ages 6 to 12 are all about creating foundation for basic skill set like passing, shooting and running. Honing individual skills.That age group should NOT under any circumstance be about excellence on the pitch.

I disagree. My son is 8 and his coaches are Columbian and he's absolutely learning how to play the game. Shooting and passing and shit he already knows. He's learning about space and positioning and how to play one touch on the floor football. Next summer he will be in Columbia for a month at an academy there.

Basically his coach tells us that by age 13 if they don't have it they never will.

For example Spanish Soccer Coaching Bible and some book about Ajax Academy coaching (can't remember the name unfortunately) spesifically says that kids shouldn't be bothered with complicated tactical things like passing to the space or more complicated off the ball movement than running in straight lines before age of 11. The way they see it is that kids have certain ages when they are sensitive to certain skills. That age should be all about running with the ball, dribbling, shooting and technique of passing (not tactics). Players should be encouraged to take on other players regardless if it's anyway usefull to the outcome of the game. Let the kids themselves figure it out what is usefull and what is not. If you do things when kids are not sensitive about it you will only teach them ways that are really hard to correct in the future.

By the age of 13 you can see which boys definitely do NOT have it. That is, I'd say, 40 to 50 % of the age group. That leaves you with massive pool of kids whose development is unpredictable at best, complete crap shoot at worst. I dare you to check boy level (roughly 14 to 17) national teams of any given country from the past even from major international tournaments and see for yourself how many of them made it to top. You will be shocked to find out that even in best teams you will only recognize couple of names. I've seen super talented youth players who never amounted anything and I've seen kids who never stood out at the age of 15 and turned out to be professional footballers.

Also, no one ever really "knows" passing and shooting. No one does it perfect. That goes from any three year old just starting out to Andrea Pirlo. Only sure thing I know about player development is that they have this deep inner feeling that they never are perfect on anything and keep on practising.

Of course they keep practising. That's the nature of sports. You're never perfect.

Kids under 11 can learn space and tactics. I'm watching them do it.

I'd be interested to know how teaching is different in Columbia, Brazil, Holland or Spain, etc.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

grass roots in this country are looking at moving way from competitive football and league tables until the age of 14. This approach has been the way they have done it in spain for many years. Its about letting the kids express themselves and not about results, there are pros and cons to both competitive and non competitive football. At least this way the parents might behave more.

I think that is overreaction as well. Kids are not stupid and are competitive. The problem is more about coaches and to some extent parents who don't let kids improve themselves as individuals. Personal efforts are rarely encouraged and it's all about implementing some crappy "game plan" of some random coach who fancies himself as Jose Mourinho of U9 football. The "game plan" being that "pass it to that big lad who has strong shot". Taking competitive edge off the game will not really help this though. It's more about guy trying a dribble and failing miserably and coach saying "well done Timmy, next time it will happen".

Oh, and Under ten year old's shouldn't be thought the defend in classic sense at all. They should be thought to steal the ball though, preferably in opposition half.

[Wonderwall]

grass roots in this country are looking at moving way from competitive football and league tables until the age of 14. This approach has been the way they have done it in spain for many years. Its about letting the kids express themselves and not about results, there are pros and cons to both competitive and non competitive football. At least this way the parents might behave more.

I think that is overreaction as well. Kids are not stupid and are competitive. The problem is more about coaches and to some extent parents who don't let kids improve themselves as individuals. Personal efforts are rarely encouraged and it's all about implementing some crappy "game plan" of some random coach who fancies himself as Jose Mourinho of U9 football. The "game plan" being that "pass it to that big lad who has strong shot". Taking competitive edge off the game will not really help this though. It's more about guy trying a dribble and failing miserably and coach saying "well done Timmy, next time it will happen".

Oh, and Under ten year old's shouldn't be thought the defend in classic sense at all. They should be thought to steal the ball though, preferably in opposition half.

I would personally remove offisdes in Junior football up to U14. The refereeing standard is piss poor and often the fat bloke who doesnt have linesman to help him will rarely move out of the centre circle and just guesses whether it was offside or not. This is often a cause of arguments on the football field at junior level. A good referee makes a big difference to how enjoyable a game can be for coaches and kids.

[Hazy2]

Having coached kids. I never found one during 5 years who did not want to win, Try giving a Kid a Nokia brick and say it is a phone what is your problem, Kids want to be the best. On the Spanish Kids, we did two tours to Belgium played Spanish teams, French team and the fantastic Belgians, who were all in the main nice players, coached well, Good teams with a real idea on shape and style of play, Coaches were calm and of a good standard. We had no real problem playing against them we won some and lost some. On Southampton they have a massive area to fish in and boy do they crunch the numbers, Throughout Hampshire they will gobble up every player like a Dyson. They are active further afield as we saw with Shearer, I visit France, a lot and the links they have with Normandy and Brittany is impressive. In Caen they provide Kits to a local team. They have one of the best facilities in the world, with a network which does not get changed by change of a manager. I think they even have beds for the 1st team based on what they sleep in at home at the state of the art campus. All that said they are selling club, who could fall like a stone if they break up the feel good they have had.

[Niall Quinns Discopants]

grass roots in this country are looking at moving way from competitive football and league tables until the age of 14. This approach has been the way they have done it in spain for many years. Its about letting the kids express themselves and not about results, there are pros and cons to both competitive and non competitive football. At least this way the parents might behave more.

I think that is overreaction as well. Kids are not stupid and are competitive. The problem is more about coaches and to some extent parents who don't let kids improve themselves as individuals. Personal efforts are rarely encouraged and it's all about implementing some crappy "game plan" of some random coach who fancies himself as Jose Mourinho of U9 football. The "game plan" being that "pass it to that big lad who has strong shot". Taking competitive edge off the game will not really help this though. It's more about guy trying a dribble and failing miserably and coach saying "well done Timmy, next time it will happen".

Oh, and Under ten year old's shouldn't be thought the defend in classic sense at all. They should be thought to steal the ball though, preferably in opposition half.

I would personally remove offisdes in Junior football up to U14. The refereeing standard is piss poor and often the fat bloke who doesnt have linesman to help him will rarely move out of the centre circle and just guesses whether it was offside or not. This is often a cause of arguments on the football field at junior level. A good referee makes a big difference to how enjoyable a game can be for coaches and kids.

That's a good call. Here until the age of 12 the offside rule is only in place within penalty box.

Funnily enough I was watching youth tournament today with my lad (attention span of a meerkat meaning 5 minutes of watching the game then 30 minutes of kickabout behind the goal) and witnessed the main reasons why we in Finland produce certain type of players (big, never-say-die attitude, zero individual talent) but rarely truly talented world class players. I was standing next to some parents watching U8 game. This one feller was kicking everything that moves and then in one situation came stubs first in purpose basically splitting this kid in half. Like really nasty even if it was adults game. Apparently this was one of these adults son. They started laughing and father of the boy said "he showed that kid who's the boss". WTF? 8 year old kid is not a fucking boss of anyone and if that was my lad I'd be furious. Then on other game there was this really small and shy looking boy who was head and shoulders above everyone else in tehnique. Really natural with the ball. He didn't really dominate though as he looked shitscared of the coach barking orders from the sideline (keep the formation, remember your position, the usual crap). So he missed one pretty ambitious pass which lead to opposition goal. That idiot coach immediately took him off the pitch. That should teach him never to try any of that fancy stuff and stick to the "game plan".