Tactical Disaster

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Tactical Disaster

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:49 am

After the initial fervour of last night (good effort from the fans involved to try & create an atmosphere), once the players had half killed it with one of the most pathetic pieces of team play seen since the 1st div relegation season, I really tried to detatch myself from the proceedings & just figure out exactly what we were doing.

One major factor, tbf, is that several players are clearly knackered & are pushing themselves to stay with the pace; Nasri/Zabba to name but 2. Fernandinho is also boderline buggered. That is outside the Count's control & a big problem.

BUT, all the tactical evolution from early season & the improvements on it during the season have pretty much gone & in its place is what can only be described as a dog's breakfast. This is absolutely no different to Moyes' rags team, just better players. The system, doesn't exist anymore, it is a complete & utter mess.

We have a 'high line' apart from when we don't. We have overlapping fullbacks who don't overlap, & if they did, they would have nobody to pass to because we have two up front but sometimes nobody up front. One slow, average, midfielder trying to patrol 50 square yards of space in front of the defence (who gets a huge cheer every time he manages to actually do it).

One of the West Brom midfielders yesterday, made a pass inside Zabba, to a runner who ran behind him (this was how teams tore us apart pre season on both sides). A mate said: 'great ball that' . It was, but it is a pass almost any Premier League midfield can play. Usually, at that level, a player doesn't get the time to get himself perfectly positioned, look up & see a huge gap between cb & fullback, thus stick the ball through it. This is testimonial match level team defending.

When you see this kind of stuff happening, as a manager, & we are in a title run in, you just act to fix it. One time, Aguero & Nasri were stood, marked, 50 yards up from the rest of our team & West Brom had the ball. Our defence was split from the midfield; it was like watching England in the heat in Mexico in 1970.

Pellegrini has just sat & watched this kind of thing happen for 3 games in a row; oppo midfield/attack collecting the ball at the halfwayline in acres of space & running at our back 4.

The 'pressing game' only happens for about 5 mins per match; it is failing. Then we are just left with nothing. We need to adapt, tighten up, play proper title fighting football & win these fucking games. If we do, we will probably be champions.

Football philosphy & development is fine, but the players are fucked & they have stopped doing most of it. We have spells of brilliance where we take hold of the game, then we flag. We are getting in 'result' positions in these games then risking being torn apart. The Utd game even, was the same. When the effort level drops, we need to get them into a simple, solid shape & battle for the title, not worry about looking good. We have better players then anyone who we will play against & can get our noses in front. Do it, then form up, then counter attack. We can go back to the non defending everybody goes forward stuff next season.

Am I the only one who is noticing this ?
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Beefymcfc » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:58 am

We went over all this at the start of the season when we lost to the likes of Cardiff/Villa et al where a lot of people said the system doesn't work in some cases. If the system is inherently wrong then no matter what the team does it will always come back to the system. The system itself is tiring so it's not going to get any better with time, just worse.

We have chosen a brand of football that is appealling to the eye, to attract the next generation of support. The problem with this is that you need to have the back-up to come in and do a job to a decent level and you can only do that if the rotation is right. Leaving a player on the bench for 5 games or so and then expecting him to play as if he's been there all season is not going to happen.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:07 am

Beefymcfc wrote:We went over all this at the start of the season when we lost to the likes of Cardiff/Villa et al where a lot of people said the system doesn't work in some cases. If the system is inherently wrong then no matter what the team does it will always come back to the system. The system itself is tiring so it's not going to get any better with time, just worse.

We have chosen a brand of football that is appealling to the eye, to attract the next generation of support. The problem with this is that you need to have the back-up to come in and do a job to a decent level and you can only do that if the rotation is right. Leaving a player on the bench for 5 games or so and then expecting him to play as if he's been there all season is not going to happen.


Well tiredness is key to that of course. At the start of the season, players were fucking up due to individual mistakes & learning a new thing. Then we started getting it right & were incredible. Now, even though individual fuck ups are still costing us, the system is failling because we CAN'T do it anymore. We don't have the required energy to press the ball & make it work.

We still have a title on the line & we can, at any time, just put an extra man in midfield & tighten up. Had we done so v Sunderland, the title would now be in our hands, not Liverpool's.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby john@staustell » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:20 am

We are clearly utterly fucked and our best players are injured.

Even so, if Liverpool had played as many games as we have, if they hadn't had all the luck going, including at Norwich where that shot rebounded over Ruddy, they would be knackered and well behind us.

And we'd win the PL, and everything would be rosy. (Which we still may)

Fine lines.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:27 am

john@staustell wrote:We are clearly utterly fucked and our best players are injured.

Even so, if Liverpool had played as many games as we have, if they hadn't had all the luck going, including at Norwich where that shot rebounded over Ruddy, they would be knackered and well behind us.

And we'd win the PL, and everything would be rosy. (Which we still may)

Fine lines.


If you put Ferguson in charge of us at Christmas, we would be clear now. He would have rotated, & won games by just basically scraping a result in some, then battered teams on the 'good' days. Liverpool would have cracked rather than winning every week.

We have failed to see the signs of fatigue creeping in, & done nothing to prepare for this situation.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Wonderwall » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:33 am

So is the Answer, Richards for Zabba, Jovetic for Silva, Milner for Fernandinho?

This will address the burn out issue, plus, Jovetic looks so hungry, too hungry. I think he needs to start so he can pace himself and play his natural game instead of trying to put 90 mins effort into 20 mins. I like Jovetic and with Silva looking doubtful, he could be the key.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Cocacolajojo1 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:46 am

I've been thinking something similar for the last few games.

IMO, Pellegrini is ruthless against his own players. He plays them regardless of their fitness and he makes them to tasks that they can't cope. Yesterday was a good example, I mean we're fucking 3-1 up, why not take of Silva as well to rest him? Instead he insists on playing him and he breaks down. Coincidence or not, Pellegrini seems to be oblivious to the strains he puts his players through. Likewise with Aguero. Had he smoothed him in instead of forcing him to play, it's quite possible we could at least have used Aguero as an impact sub for the second half in a lot of games.

Another good example is Ferna. He's made to cover enormous distances along the pitch and he's been doing since the start of the season and by now he's knackered. I don't agree that he's border buggered, I'd say he's on the verge of some sort of physical breakdown. The amount of times he's made unforced errors resulting on a difficult situation for us, not seldom around the centre circle, is mind boggling. He's tired. The error yesterday from the freekick was a very obvious one but it's been happening for a while now. I didn't see this myself but I read an interview with Thomas Gravesen where he said that one of the reasons he never made it at Real was because he was made to work in a defensive midfielder position after the departure of Makelele, with basically the rest of the midfield neglecting their defensive duties, which wore him down. I've been thinking about that interview a lot lately when watching Ferna.

Why does Pellegrini persist in playing with a four man midfield when we are clearly knackerd? Wait, forget four man. Say three. Perhaps because of his knock, perhaps because he's tired, perhaps because he's just not up to it, Silva rarely came back and helped out defensively yesterday. Well rarely is perhaps an exaggeration, but he let the game pass him by quite a few times.

In the beginning of the season and during our LC run during autumn, I remember writing that Pellegrini's habit of always fielding what seemed to be the strongest possible eleven would endear him to some fans. Well it might've, but his inability to rotate the team has left us more vulnerable that is necessary at the end of this league campaign. His image is that he's much more of a cozy manager that makes players feel involved in the team and fine, his way of speaking to players might be softer than Mancini's for example, but IMO he's not a bit more inclusive when it comes to fielding fringe players or even junior players. When it comes to EDS-players, I think Mancini might've even been bolder, which is some feat as Mancini was very conservative.

And to persist in playing this 442 or a very attacking 451 when the players in midfield as well as defence are clearly faltering seems ignorant to me. As you write Ted, why not insert that extra man into midfield and give everybody a break?

I don't know if it's the five trophies in five years statement of Sorrano that has driven Pellegrini to rely on an increasingly knackered core of players and to tempt fate with playing players when there's a risk of injuries. It's just strange though.

Having said that we might still win the bloody thing anyway and Pellegrini deserves a lot of credit for having transformed our way of playing while still having us challenge for the league title to the very end. His persistence with playing tired or semi-injured players when there are valid options has to go though, as well as his reluctance towards rotating. It's a flaw of his, IMO.

As for the breakdown in tactics I also agree and I think it was very palpable in the last minutes versus Sunderland. People give Hart (deserved) schtick for just hoofing the ball up the field, right onto the feet of Sunderland players, but that's like forgetting all the other players who continuously lost their head in those last minutes. Milner may not have set the world alight during that evening but I'd say it was more a sign of a team losing it's head, running into dead ends for most of the game (like Zabba in the 91st minute, needlessly giving away the ball to Sunderland at a crucial moment) instead of having a sound tactic to fall back on.

It's weird. No or little nerves. We're supposed to have a seasoned squad by now.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby dazby » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:48 am

We look like a side trying to do "just enough."
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Hazy2 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:52 am

We have not used the squad, we have 15 players the rest share 30 games amongst them, injuries are the only changes, I see little in a plan B, Palace are going to be full of running, and they have had the stress of relegation hanging around them all season. We are soft and lack the confidence in the squad from the manager to make changes. Take 3 players out we look far from one of Europe's best.

The way in which WBA scored for me summed up our season. soft under belly, that should have been in yer face from not just a captain, you twats.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:02 am

And I would add, that if we'd kept Barry, we would now be pretty much champions.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Cocacolajojo1 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:08 am

Ted Hughes wrote:And I would add, that if we'd kept Barry, we would now be pretty much champions.


Barry in that two man midfield would have ground to a halt, literally, stuck in the grass. It's the system, not the players (at this point of the season anyway).
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Esky » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:14 am

I might be off base, but a commentary team a week or two back said City have used fewer players than any other Premier League club? If true, minutes played for the likes of Rodwell, Jovetic, Richards would make it even more damning. And on top of that, we rotated our keepers for six weeks.

Pellegrini's subs are invariably Kolarov, Garcia or Milner (whomever isn't starting) and Dzeko/Negredo (whomever isn't starting). To echo the above, playing the best 11 whenever and wherever possible has let us down.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:14 am

Cocacolajojo wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:And I would add, that if we'd kept Barry, we would now be pretty much champions.


Barry in that two man midfield would have ground to a halt, literally, stuck in the grass. It's the system, not the players (at this point of the season anyway).


It's not ideal for him, but he did it many times successfully with Yaya or Nige. Barry is on another planet compared to Garcia for instance, when it comes to reading the game. Garcia has to make full length sliding tackles to do stuff Barry would do without breaking sweat, because he's already read it. He makes those around him play better, by doing shit they would have to do, because he sees it so early.

No comparison imo.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Cocacolajojo1 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:21 am

Ted Hughes wrote:
Cocacolajojo wrote:
Ted Hughes wrote:And I would add, that if we'd kept Barry, we would now be pretty much champions.


Barry in that two man midfield would have ground to a halt, literally, stuck in the grass. It's the system, not the players (at this point of the season anyway).


It's not ideal for him, but he did it many times successfully with Yaya or Nige. Barry is on another planet compared to Garcia for instance, when it comes to reading the game. Garcia has to make full length sliding tackles to do stuff Barry would do without breaking sweat, because he's already read it. He makes those around him play better, by doing shit they would have to do, because he sees it so early.

No comparison imo.


I agree with you, Garcia has little to offer compared to Barry in the same role. People also forget how Barry always seemed to find Yaya or Silva (in comparison to the sideways passing-lable being attatched to Garcia nowadays). But... I don't think Barry has it in him to last in that role that Garcia now has and that Ferna had before him. A crude comparison but Hamann during Sven's and Hughes's tenures. Under Sven in a organized five man midfield: good at covering space while being slower than Barry. Under Hughes in a disorganized 4-5 man midfield: lost.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Hazy2 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:22 am

De Jong would have done the work we need hooked onto Vinny in front of the B4 kicking Suarez last week, WOULD HAVE BEEN A GIVEN. Vinny is a great player he is an average captain, I love him he is the best c/back around just to nice to launch Suarez and take a yellow. Ramos would have been sent off,in someway you can have respect for that approach to dealing with what the ref wont.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:36 am

Both Barry & DeJong would have vastly improved the squad this season (& last in Nige's case) compared to the output from Garcia & Rodwell imo.

But even so, the job Garcia is being asked to do right now is the one Fernandinho often has to do, & it's really hard. Demichelis got the same shit end of the stick v Chelsea, & got crucified for it, but that Chelsea side would have murdered Garcia just the same on last night's team performance. It's a huge area & Fernandinho performs miracles covering it game after game. But Grcia does not have his pace & it's even more unfair to expect him to do it. If the rest of the team are lacking energy, it's a hell of a task.

Barry would cope better due to his exceptional football brain imo, but the simplist thing would just be to put another fucking player sitting there when we are struggling. It's not rocket science & certainly not beyond the Count's tactical knowledge. He is just choosing not to do it; he can see it.

Imo, we have pissed away points v Liverpool & Sunderland by not doing that & this is not the time for football philosophy. Just win.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Wooders » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:42 am

Pelllers will refresh the squad (if ffp lets him) over the summer with players he trusts to put in a rotating system - we've also got burndown issues because of injuries to our backup players
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Blue Since 76 » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:44 am

I think we all know how we'd set a team up to cause City problems. Since none of us are managers yet we can see the weaknesses is a worry. I can't imagine Pulis or Martinez have failed to notice either so results in the next two games may be more down to luck and individual brilliance than the team set up.

However, I'd be surprised if the same issues were there next season, although it'll be interesting to see how we decide to fix it.
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Ted Hughes » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:48 am

Wooders wrote:Pelllers will refresh the squad (if ffp lets him) over the summer with players he trusts to put in a rotating system - we've also got burndown issues because of injuries to our backup players



All true, so in the meantime, when we are winning the game, he sees Aguero & Nasri both stood with their hands on their hips 40 yards upfield, Silva struggling to stay with runners, Fernandinho in an advanced positiion next to Dzeko & WBA with five players running at/past Garcia at our dodgy back 4, why doesn't he just stiffen up the midfield, settle for the win & perhaps even a chance of more goals on the counter attack ?
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Re: Tactical Disaster

Postby Foreverinbluedreams » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:51 am

Ted Hughes wrote:
Wooders wrote:Pelllers will refresh the squad (if ffp lets him) over the summer with players he trusts to put in a rotating system - we've also got burndown issues because of injuries to our backup players



All true, so in the meantime, when we are winning the game, he sees Aguero & Nasri both stood with their hands on their hips 40 yards upfield, Silva struggling to stay with runners, Fernandinho in an advanced positiion next to Dzeko & WBA with five players running at/past Garcia at our dodgy back 4, why doesn't he just stiffen up the midfield, settle for the win & perhaps even a chance of more goals on the counter attack ?


Just a though but if Pellegrini starts making substitutions to hold what we have then that sends a message to the players to take our foot of the gas and that's when we become vulnerable.
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