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Re Doug's comments on t'other thread.

I agree with hindsight, that we may have been better playing one up front v Real (and sometimes in the Prem) at least to start with, but that aside, the question in my mind again last night was whether either Dzeko or Kolarov are up to the level we require.

My own opinion is that there is still hope for Dzeko, but it's gradually fading.

Kolarov on the other hand, whilst having some fantastic abilities which our squad lacks, is, well...a bit below top level players in that position, shall we say.

Was he injured last night ? If not, Mancini chose to play a right back, out of position, rather than trust Kolarov as left back. That was a rare example of excellent management in Europe, but suggests that even Mancini knows Kolarov isn't good enough.

Is it possible to discuss both rationally without the usual ?

Kolarov can be brilliant, but not against the quicker teams.

Dzeko is a super-sub, pure and simple. Appalling when he starts, brilliant as a sub.

Was saying to a mate last night that Dzeko's first touch and control is very poor for the type of striker he should be i.e. looking to hold up play and bring in players joining from midfield or a deep-lying striker. He replied well who would you replace him with and I said that I don't know at which point he suggested Lewandowski at Dortmund. Any thoughts on that, lads?

Re: Kolarov - Does offer something going forward against the lower teams and as said when he has time on the ball but again not sure as who we could replace him with.

john@staustell wrote:Kolarov can be brilliant, but not against the quicker teams.

Dzeko is a super-sub, pure and simple. Appalling when he starts, brilliant as a sub.

I agree Kolarov is sub standard except with his ability to attack and cross against weaker teams. In games where the opposition sit back more and effectively have cover against him he is almost totally ineffective but throw him in against weaker teams where we dominate and he is a great option and threat.

I feel for Dzeko a bit but again against the better sides he is not well suited to starting games against teams that are strong and well organised. Early in games,before they open up at all.He can be fairly well shackled and although he might compete well and hold the ball up at times,his speed of movement and his touch are not quite good enough. He really doesn't suit a game where he has to show for balls to his feet and get involved in all the short passing aimed at opening teams up.

He is mainly a box player. Last night he wasn't great but wasn't awful either I didn't think.His first touch and immediate pass helped create the chance for Aguero to win the pen.He was in a great position to score when Aguero miscontrolled that ball in the 2nd half ( the one that went straight to the keeper) and he laid a good cross back for a half chance in the 2nd half.Definitely a good squad member and different to the others we have.

Is there any suggestion that Kolarov was injured ?

I ask this because imo, if a (often 2nd choice) left back is removed at half time because the manager prefers a right back in his position, his career at that club is over. Tactics aside, how would you feel if you were Kolarov & that happened ?

Imo that says 'not good enough' in great big letters, unless injured. So any injury rumours at all ?

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:

john@staustell wrote:Kolarov can be brilliant, but not against the quicker teams.

Dzeko is a super-sub, pure and simple. Appalling when he starts, brilliant as a sub.

I agree Kolarov is sub standard except with his ability to attack and cross against weaker teams. In games where the opposition sit back more and effectively have cover against him he is almost totally ineffective but throw him in against weaker teams where we dominate and he is a great option and threat.

I feel for Dzeko a bit but again against the better sides he is not well suited to starting games against teams that are strong and well organised. Early in games,before they open up at all.He can be fairly well shackled and although he might compete well and hold the ball up at times,his speed of movement and his touch are not quite good enough. He really doesn't suit a game where he has to show for balls to his feet and get involved in all the short passing aimed at opening teams up.

He is mainly a box player. Last night he wasn't great but wasn't awful either I didn't think.His first touch and immediate pass helped create the chance for Aguero to win the pen.He was in a great position to score when Aguero miscontrolled that ball in the 2nd half ( the one that went straight to the keeper) and he laid a good cross back for a half chance in the 2nd half.Definitely a good squad member and different to the others we have.

Is he the best available for that kind of 'different option' job though (assuming he will not be willing to play as a sub forever) ?

For instance, would a fully fit Lllorente have occupied Real's centre backs better than Dzeko & thus given more space to Aguero ?

I was happy to give Balotelli & Dzeko another season as both are now Champions. And both are trying much harder imo, whatever people say. Dzeko's goal scoring expolits have raised his value again though & Mario is a saleable asset. Those two + Kolarov leaving, could give City a big transfer kitty for next season with the extra tv money & a few quid extra 'sponsorship'.

Kolarov being not good enough is why we couldn't control the first half last night. Mancini can't trust him at left back so he plays a 5 in defence which means he needs a 3 man midfield and with the 3 picked Yaya had to stay deep. I'd prefer it if Kolarov never pulled on the strip again.

ayrshireblue wrote:Kolarov being not good enough is why we couldn't control the first half last night. Mancini can't trust him at left back so he plays a 5 in defence which means he needs a 3 man midfield and with the 3 picked Yaya had to stay deep. I'd prefer it if Kolarov never pulled on the strip again.

Mancini will play that system even if we get rid of Kolarov. He'll sign another one (hopefully quicker).

Ted Hughes wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:

john@staustell wrote:Kolarov can be brilliant, but not against the quicker teams.

Dzeko is a super-sub, pure and simple. Appalling when he starts, brilliant as a sub.

I agree Kolarov is sub standard except with his ability to attack and cross against weaker teams. In games where the opposition sit back more and effectively have cover against him he is almost totally ineffective but throw him in against weaker teams where we dominate and he is a great option and threat.

I feel for Dzeko a bit but again against the better sides he is not well suited to starting games against teams that are strong and well organised. Early in games,before they open up at all.He can be fairly well shackled and although he might compete well and hold the ball up at times,his speed of movement and his touch are not quite good enough. He really doesn't suit a game where he has to show for balls to his feet and get involved in all the short passing aimed at opening teams up.

He is mainly a box player. Last night he wasn't great but wasn't awful either I didn't think.His first touch and immediate pass helped create the chance for Aguero to win the pen.He was in a great position to score when Aguero miscontrolled that ball in the 2nd half ( the one that went straight to the keeper) and he laid a good cross back for a half chance in the 2nd half.Definitely a good squad member and different to the others we have.

Is he the best available for that kind of 'different option' job though (assuming he will not be willing to play as a sub forever) ?

For instance, would a fully fit Lllorente have occupied Real's centre backs better than Dzeko & thus given more space to Aguero ?

I was happy to give Balotelli & Dzeko another season as both are now Champions. And both are trying much harder imo, whatever people say. Dzeko's goal scoring expolits have raised his value again though & Mario is a saleable asset. Those two + Kolarov leaving, could give City a big transfer kitty for next season with the extra tv money & a few quid extra 'sponsorship'.

Yes I am sure Llorente would have occupied the defenders much better but would he come as a 3rd striker? Maybe that's not relevant anyway as the arrival of somebody that good would probably mean Tevez is 3rd striker.He was last night! Has Tevez only got a season and a half left anyway?

I still like Dzeko and know he will be a major contributor in our title challenge but the way we play I just can't see him as a first choice in our best team.

Kolarov is still worth a squad place and good enough to play when others need a break as long as the right games are chosen.

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:

Ted Hughes wrote:

Douglas Higginbottom wrote:

john@staustell wrote:Kolarov can be brilliant, but not against the quicker teams.

Dzeko is a super-sub, pure and simple. Appalling when he starts, brilliant as a sub.

I agree Kolarov is sub standard except with his ability to attack and cross against weaker teams. In games where the opposition sit back more and effectively have cover against him he is almost totally ineffective but throw him in against weaker teams where we dominate and he is a great option and threat.

I feel for Dzeko a bit but again against the better sides he is not well suited to starting games against teams that are strong and well organised. Early in games,before they open up at all.He can be fairly well shackled and although he might compete well and hold the ball up at times,his speed of movement and his touch are not quite good enough. He really doesn't suit a game where he has to show for balls to his feet and get involved in all the short passing aimed at opening teams up.

He is mainly a box player. Last night he wasn't great but wasn't awful either I didn't think.His first touch and immediate pass helped create the chance for Aguero to win the pen.He was in a great position to score when Aguero miscontrolled that ball in the 2nd half ( the one that went straight to the keeper) and he laid a good cross back for a half chance in the 2nd half.Definitely a good squad member and different to the others we have.

Is he the best available for that kind of 'different option' job though (assuming he will not be willing to play as a sub forever) ?

For instance, would a fully fit Lllorente have occupied Real's centre backs better than Dzeko & thus given more space to Aguero ?

I was happy to give Balotelli & Dzeko another season as both are now Champions. And both are trying much harder imo, whatever people say. Dzeko's goal scoring expolits have raised his value again though & Mario is a saleable asset. Those two + Kolarov leaving, could give City a big transfer kitty for next season with the extra tv money & a few quid extra 'sponsorship'.

Yes I am sure Llorente would have occupied the defenders much better but would he come as a 3rd striker? Maybe that's not relevant anyway as the arrival of somebody that good would probably mean Tevez is 3rd striker.He was last night! Has Tevez only got a season and a half left anyway?

I still like Dzeko and know he will be a major contributor in our title challenge but the way we play I just can't see him as a first choice in our best team.

Kolarov is still worth a squad place and good enough to play when others need a break as long as the right games are chosen.

Kolarov has already been to see Mancini about his lack of games last season. I think he's a gonner.

I have already acknowledged Your point on the other thread, so nothing to add bar, possibly, I had a gut feeling that, keeping Maicon over Kolarov was more down to some "acquired uber-respect", rather than to actual trust on either.
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If You read the flow of my emotional comments along the match, You may see that the acknowledgement of Your "out-foxing cocking-up" theory has been developed on me throughout. If we assume that Mancini is not a clueless moron, not to have evidence from training and previous games, that the Team is not tuned yet on the 5-3-2, as it must finely be to be used in such games, that cannot lead to different assessment other than Your theory.

Kolarov is largely shit but he offers us something going forward other players can't. He's our best crosser and to be honest he's the only player who has any idea how to take a free kick.

Half hearted displays from both last night I thought. Need to get stuck in more and move the ball quicker.

Dzeko did improve second half.

Dzeko is an impact sub, his first touch often let's him down, really he is not good enough to start in big games. We were sold a pup.

Kolarov is quality.

I love Dzeko, but not starting Tevez was ridiculous we needed that workrate from the off, I honestly think we would of battered them had we started him instead of Edin due to the fact that Carlos tracks back defends and is able to start a counter without giving the ball away.

Ted Hughes wrote:

ayrshireblue wrote:Kolarov being not good enough is why we couldn't control the first half last night. Mancini can't trust him at left back so he plays a 5 in defence which means he needs a 3 man midfield and with the 3 picked Yaya had to stay deep. I'd prefer it if Kolarov never pulled on the strip again.

Mancini will play that system even if we get rid of Kolarov. He'll sign another one (hopefully quicker).

Gareth bale would be fantastic in our system , break the bank or find somebody like him ( or a younger Craig Bellamy ).

chef wrote:

Ted Hughes wrote:

ayrshireblue wrote:Kolarov being not good enough is why we couldn't control the first half last night. Mancini can't trust him at left back so he plays a 5 in defence which means he needs a 3 man midfield and with the 3 picked Yaya had to stay deep. I'd prefer it if Kolarov never pulled on the strip again.

Mancini will play that system even if we get rid of Kolarov. He'll sign another one (hopefully quicker).

Gareth bale would be fantastic in our system , break the bank or find somebody like him ( or a younger Craig Bellamy ).

Bale was too lazy tracking back v City imo. I was a big advocate for signing him but I think I've changed my mind.

Both have made timely and valuable contributions, both offer something different and both should be in the 18 every week. Neither should be guaranteed a starting spot.

My opinion of Kolarov is that he cannot be trusted as a full back as he doesn't have the sufficient energy to track back.

He was selected as a left wing back to try and create width and for any potential set pieces.

Tbf I think he was only taken off at half time because we couldn't get any width, the midfield was too crowded with him and Zabba and Mancini wanted to go with Plan A of width from the fullbacks.

On the Dzeko front I thought he did well given the lack of service. we play to ALL of his weaknesses and none of his strengths. Especially we no width. Although when Maicon was putting the crosses in where was he? Mancini had him on the left.