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FFP Again
Posted:
Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:39 pmby Ted Hughes
The whole world has pretty much seen the truth of what is really behind this now (even Mourinho has added his bile, suggesting to me that perhaps there is some truth in the Ronaldo rumours & it's upset him) & any facade of it being about 'fair play' has gone right out the window.
Any neutral person given the info can see it's about companies trying to stop the competition from other companies by using their influence on the regulators; it is corruption, in broad daylight.
Anyone else think we have been paying lip service to this whilst others push in the opposite direction & are now going to see what gets done to a.n. other club, who miss the criteria then make our move ?
If a club is further off the mark than us & they don't immediately get exact details of sanctions ( exactly what the crime is & what the punishments are if they miss the targets set) then no criteria exists.
How can you legally punish someone without specifying exactly the details of the crime & what the punishment is, for that crime ?
You suddenly say " oh you're banned ", to a multi billion £ company without first giving them the exact criteria ? And when you do give them the criteria, you suddenly expect them to change their business plan to comply when you haven't even told them what the punishment is for failing to comply in the first place & what the degree of leeway is ?
They have been getting closer & closer to this becoming law, a law which potentially costs clubs billions & yet still, nobody seems to know what the scale is re crime & punishment & how it will be applied.
So comparing it with the real world; someone stealing a tube of toothpaste is potentially subject to the same punishment as someone robbing Fort Knox because nobody has put any actual scale or decent guidelines on anything.
I'm sorry, but even football, in all its corrupt ineptitude, cannot operate like this.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:03 pmby Bianchi on Ice
A lot of questions i dont know the answers to Ted. I could turn this around and say well...what if we were still City looking at top half as the limit. What would our reaction be? Im playing devils advocate here but was all of this designed to stop City inparticular or anyone, namely those undesirable types from asia, from establishing too much of a foothold on the ultra lucrative european game and the associated contracts. If we strip it down to the form of "companies" then that argument would appear feasable...all i hope is our "company" (and im not having a pop but lets just look at it as business) has done its homework and is ready to protect itself. Its difficult to balance because it appears WE are under attack...but it would just be the same if everyone started drinking "coolycola"...you think coca cola would tolerate that? We are coolycola and the scum are coca cola. Ive answered none of your questions and im as indignant as you are.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:24 pmby blues2win
No it wasn't. It was designed as a corrupt racket to protect the existing European elite from competition from anyone else. By what right does Platini tell a businessman how much he can invest in his own business? What is fair about Real Madrid and Barcelona grabbing all the TV money and the former being bailed out by the Government? What is right about the existing elite having the huge competitive advantage of CL money where new clubs don't have the resources to break in?
Now we have the scum trying to impose the same racket on the Premier League so that they can benefit from the competitive advantage of their own high turnover before we can build up to similar levels. Don't let any City fan defend Platini and his gang. By the way Michel had a look at Paris St Germain's transfer spending and wages recently?
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:24 pmby london blue 2
Ted I think you're being naive if you think the general majority understand that FFP is set up to maintain the status quo. I believe that most on here do and most intelligent football fans, but unfortunately the majority of people seem to think that it's a good idea, set up to stop teams like city and chelsea ruining football.
Id love it if there was a media outlet as powerful as the sun (I know) that focused on the fact that FFP restricts any lesser team with any financial ambition but that's never going to be the case.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:49 amby aaron bond
london blue 2 wrote:Ted I think you're being naive if you think the general majority understand that FFP is set up to maintain the status quo. I believe that most on here do and most intelligent football fans, but unfortunately the majority of people seem to think that it's a good idea, set up to stop teams like city and chelsea ruining football.
Id love it if there was a media outlet as powerful as the sun (I know) that focused on the fact that FFP restricts any lesser team with any financial ambition but that's never going to be the case.
Your first paragraph is true unfortunately. I think even most fans of teams like Villa, Everton etc. don't realise the impact it will have on their own clubs, in that it will forever doom them to mid-table mediocrity.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:08 amby john68
Ted,
Though I agree entirely with your sentiments mate, I think you are attacking this from the wrong angle. Though in reality, what you sat about BANNED and PUNISHED are morally correct, they are also wrong. No club is being punished and none banned.
I came across this some years ago with regard to the argument about which types of vehicles could be taxis. The common argument was that only 1 particular type was allowed. Some manufacturers argued that they were effectively banned from the market, leaving (at that time) only one company to hold a monopoly.....Not the case.
The then PCO (like UeFA) had set a series of criteria. The market (as with the UeFA license) was open to all manufacturers (clubs) as long as they met the set criteria. Nobody was banned and nobody was punished, they merely failed to meet the set agreed criteria. The granting of a UeFA licence, seen as a privilege granted, rather than a right that could be taken away.
UeFA have every right to set whatever criteria they deem necessary for their competitions, as long as the criteria applies equally to all clubs. They have the backing of the European Clubs' Assoc and additionally the support of the European Commission. That leaves the FFPR pretty well set.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:20 amby john68
LB2/Aaron,
Sadly, it is irrelevant how many of us are aware of the motives behind the introduction of the FFPR. We have no chance of making any real difference. Those who are aware of the motives are those with the power. The club owners who fully understand the situation. It is they that have the power to decide. We are merely disenfranchised bystanders, customers or victims of those decisions.
london blue 2 wrote:Id love it if there was a media outlet as powerful as the sun (I know) that focused on the fact that FFP restricts any lesser team with any financial ambition but that's never going to be the case.
Nor was it the case with any of the media when the European Cup was carved up in structure and financial share out. Nobody said a word. They all have a vested interest to keep the big clubs big, It's where they earn their money.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:25 amby john68
The one area where there is a chance to challenge was opened by UeFA when they announced there would be a sliding scale of sanctions. They MUST be seen to apply any sanctions, across the board with equity.
Should UeFA take a harder line with us and an easier line with any other club......BINGO....we can then steam into them.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:03 amby Ted Hughes
john68 wrote:The one area where there is a chance to challenge was opened by UeFA when they announced there would be a sliding scale of sanctions. They MUST be seen to apply any sanctions, across the board with equity.
Should UeFA take a harder line with us and an easier line with any other club......BINGO....we can then steam into them.
I'm no expert in law but seeing as there is no viable alternative to UEFA & the Premier League, I think it would be a winning argument to suggest that they would effectively be banning a club & basically putting it out of business by refusing it a license.
So far they have told nobody under what circumstances this would apply, yet the activities of clubs right now are subject to judgements which could result in...well could result in what ? They haven't fucking told anybody!
You could borrow a tube of toothpaste, intending to pay for it later & they say "death by hanging" or alternatively you rob the Crown jewels & they say "well don't do it again".
Imo, they are waiting to check that Real or Barca or Manure don't fall foul of the regs before deciding what the punishment is. If any of them miss the target, the punishment will be a warning not to miss it again, & if they miss it again, the punishment will be a warning not to do what they just did, etc etc.
Also I don't believe that the majority of football fans can't see what's happening, I think it's just that it tends to be the idiots who phone in radio shows etc. But even if the majority of fans are actually stupid, anyone involved in business or politics can see what is going on; they're not even bothering to hide it anymore.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:59 amby Beefymcfc
We're good.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:04 amby Wooders
i was a bit suprised by the likes of wigan and stoke getting behind it, I mean, our spending is going to make fuck all difference to their clubs, with every financial imposition in place that ever could be, they would never be at the races against the likes of the scum and it would just make it an even easier league for the top earners to restrict us and chelsea from spending
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:14 amby Hazy2
Having had the comapny of a few reds last night. It is clear the RAGS are relying on some measures to restrain us and PSG.
One said if you cannot buy Falcao, it would be liking wining the League for him. Any comment on FFP seems to include MCFC, why PSG, Anzi, Zennit to name 3 are spending it for fun, what they do not have is Gill and Fergie pleading for help. The same Club that fucked off thE FA Cup not so long ago to make money in South America. Ludicrous to side with a club that sold it's soul to yanks, thinking we are gonna make more money when in reality they bobbing up and down with half a bill of debt,a narrowing market. They are shit scared of us and the debt which could be around for 20 years, Plattini needs to wise up and the G14/15/16, Need to accept others have joined the party, and the members club looks doomed. I dont see Blackberry screaming for Apple to be sanctioned.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:14 amby Alex Sapphire
Wooders wrote:i was a bit suprised by the likes of wigan and stoke getting behind it, I mean, our spending is going to make fuck all difference to their clubs, with every financial imposition in place that ever could be, they would never be at the races against the likes of the scum and it would just make it an even easier league for the top earners to restrict us and chelsea from spending
it will be the first time in history that a club's local "benefactor" can avoid losing money, so I'm not at all surprised Whelan and others like it.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:05 amby ashton287
The thing about this that gets me is we are so tightly linked with ADUG and they are not just a bunch of rich cunts. They fucking run shit. The sheikh is bro's with world leaders. These people are not going to allow a club that they bought as a way of creating a brand recognised globally to be taken off the global stage by a bunch of fat greedy cunts who want it all for themselves. ADUG won't sit by while a billion pound investment slips down the shitter.
They are on a different level to other owners and the sheikh and his family have the kind of influence that FIFA just can not hope to stand up to.
Comes down to it we will just go world leader stylee on the twats behind it all and replace them with people we like instead.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:09 amby Alex Sapphire
ashton287 wrote:The thing about this that gets me is we are so tightly linked with ADUG and they are not just a bunch of rich cunts. They fucking run shit. The sheikh is bro's with world leaders. These people are not going to allow a club that they bought as a way of creating a brand recognised globally to be taken off the global stage by a bunch of fat greedy cunts who want it all for themselves. ADUG won't sit by while a billion pound investment slips down the shitter.
They are on a different level to other owners and the sheikh and his family have the kind of influence that FIFA just can not hope to stand up to.
Comes down to it we will just go world leader stylee on the twats behind it all and replace them with people we like instead.
or maybe just comply with the regs
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:12 amby Dronny
Bianchi on Ice wrote:A lot of questions i dont know the answers to Ted. I could turn this around and say well...what if we were still City looking at top half as the limit. What would our reaction be? Im playing devils advocate here but was all of this designed to stop City inparticular or anyone, namely those undesirable types from asia, from establishing too much of a foothold on the ultra lucrative european game and the associated contracts. If we strip it down to the form of "companies" then that argument would appear feasable...all i hope is our "company" (and im not having a pop but lets just look at it as business) has done its homework and is ready to protect itself. Its difficult to balance because it appears WE are under attack...[highlight]but it would just be the same if everyone started drinking "coolycola"...you think coca cola would tolerate that? We are coolycola and the scum are coca cola[/highlight]. Ive answered none of your questions and im as indignant as you are.
Interesting but factually incorrect analogy there BoI, working for said scum we are more regulated by the MMC than a highly regulated company being very highly regulated. So the scum I work for are worlds apart in relation to the competition than the indebted scum who are looking to manipulate a questionable system to put down their competition.
I too didn't answer Ted's questions :-)
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:14 amby ashton287
Alex Sapphire wrote:
or maybe just comply with the regs
Why should we? The rags never had to succeed on others terms. Liverpool didn't. Barca and real haven't. Inter or AC didn't.
They all did it one way why should we be forced to do it different? It's all bollocks and complying to it just makes it real. Clubs need to stand up and tell FIFA and the "big" clubs who want this to come in to shove it up their collective arse. Why should we help preserve their corrupt little country club?
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:17 amby PeterParker
A romanian version of MOTD had a subject about this, while they had a show covering the last week of Premiership football and they talked on and on about this FFP rule.
The argument that they gave was: "How cand you take and action and ban in anyway City for spending money, when they are a team that is own by a private company and how is possible to stop a person (the sheik) to spend his own money if he wants to. It's like going to facebook and stop them to invest because their last year finances were a little low, like they were the year before".
So this is a very good truth, how can you stop a club that is not own by the local council or "socios" like they are in Spain?
All this crap will happen for two reasons :
1) Until we will be in that G14 or G24 group, we will have problems of every nature (even purelly footballistic related, like the last two death groups we were sent in UCL).
2) The big boys that are now in football, will not like teams like Us, PSG or Anzhi because we are now financially at their level or superior. They liked the status-quo of football that they had, for them to be the God own teams, to have 60 mil to spend every year and the others just 10 mil or less.
If this rule will apply, it will be just for the teams that will want a place with the big boys, like us and those fuckers won't like it.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:31 amby gillie
FFP is imo just a rule for the bullies and the rest have to lump it or get twatted.City need to stand up to the bullies and twat them back end of.
Re: FFP Again
Posted:
Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:40 amby john68
Ted Hughes wrote:
I'm no expert in law but seeing as there is no viable alternative to UEFA & the Premier League, I think it would be a winning argument to suggest that they would effectively be banning a club & basically putting it out of business by refusing it a license.
I too am not a legal expert Ted, but from the research I have done and a long discussion with a lawyer involved with the FFPR, I believe that on the "NO ALTERNATIVE/MONOPOLY" issue, you are right. UeFA has to be seen to act fairly and equitably and be in compliance with both EU and Swiss monopoly law. I believe that; because UeFA have the right to determine the criteria for their licence, because the FFPR are the same for everyone and given the added support of the ECA and the European Commission, UeFA are sitting pretty at this stage.
However....that scenario may change if/when/should UeFA actually act to refuse to grant a license or apply sanctions for non compliance. They must then do so in a fair and equitable way. As UeFA have not yet acted against a club, we don't know.