Munichs (rant warning)

[Goataldo]

I'm confused, the opening post thinks it wrong so uses it in the title of a thread ...

The best way to wind up the munich prawn loving rag wankers is to tell them Chelsea is now our derby match!


yours

Confused

Context mate. Sometimes it can be difficult to talk about a subject, without actually mentioning it.

Yours,

Perpetually apoplectic.

[Goataldo]

TBH, This is a subject that I would rather stay away from and to those who seem to think that I can offer some form of definitive post on the issue..."Thanks a bunch"..."huh!" I am certainly NOT qualified to make judgements on the ethics of the matter as that is a personal thing for individuals to decide for themselves.

Historically, In 1958 most City fans stood shoulder to shoulder with the rags in a show of Mancunian solidarity, as Manchester mourned.
In the 60s, when the Kippax was formed, Munich just wasn't on the agenda. Our hatred of all things rag was just as strong and vehement and although there were songs about "Scraping them off the runway like strawberry jam". They were very low key, usually sung privately and never sung loudly by the Kippax at matches. The Munich chants derive from a much later date...but not sure when.
There can be no doubt that the rag club acted depicably towards their own. I'm not sure if all that was said about Albert Scanlon is true or if Uwe's Sky Blue Duvet has mixed up his facts but Scanlon himself publicly stated that on his return from the Munich hospital, he was expected to pay his own taxi fares and the club refused to reimburse him. There are stories of players being told to move from their club houses and when the rags contacted Duncan Edwards's family for aticles to display in their new museum, the Edwards family were scathing in their condemnation of the rags for their lack of support or interest when it was needed most.
The game advertised as the 40th anniversary, turned out to be more of a testimonial for Cantona and the 50th anniversary was commercialised and sponsored by AIG. To the disgust of rag fans.
For the rags, Munich gave them huge national and international sympathy which the rags used, with the help of a friendly media, to turn into a commercial opportunity. Sadly, most of their fans know little of the truth and few would admit it anyway.

Whether it is ethically right for our fans to use Munich as a weapon against them is an issue for each of us to decide personally. Personally, I endorse Ted's view that we are gifting them a stick with which they can beat us back. I don't think most young city fans know why they chant it, other than it winds the rags up.

I hope some of that helped.

Cheers John - I can't verify the Scanlon details as fact, as I said I was told this by some old geezer - I was just trying to highlight the fact that if we have to bang on about Munich, there's better things to focus on, be it treating the victims of their own disaster badly, or shamelessly trying to wring money out of it. Not to mention all the other reasons that they're scum.

[blues-clues]

I finally found this: I have read it before and I just find it very very sad. The Cantona stuff though is enough to make you want to puke.

A new book by journalist Jeff Connor has at last given them their say - and their stories show there is a far darker side to the legacy of Munich for Manchester United, thoroughly undermining the image of a caring club.

The Munich crash was one of Britain's worst-ever sporting disasters with United and England losing many of their finest players.

YET it is a rich paradox that Munich was perhaps the making of Manchester United.

Before 1958, they were just another English football club, little different to others such as Arsenal, Tottenham Hotspur or Wolverhampton Wanderers. But after 1958, because of the tragic death toll, their name had a unique resonance.

The sympathy lavished on the club led to a worldwide following. The international support was made all the more powerful when United rose like a phoenix from the ashes to dominate English football in the mid-Sixties and win the European Cup with a team including George Best exactly a decade after Munich.

The horror of Munich became the central part of the romantic narrative about Manchester United, a tale of heroism defeating adversity.

The fact that the two most dominant figures at United in the mid-Sixties, Matt Busby and captain Bobby Charlton, were both survivors of the crash only added to the club's appeal.

But while the club may have exploited the disaster to enhance its image - the club's museum at Old Trafford, for example, is filled with imagery from the disaster, including mementos left by the dead players the truth is that families of many of the victims were shamefully neglected.

'To my mind, Munich killed not only a lot of the players who were on that flight, but some of the survivors, too,' says Albert Scanlon, one of the surviving footballers from that fatal journey.

'Families have been destroyed and people thrown out on the street.' At the time of the crash, United were one of the most exciting teams in Europe.

Uninhibited and youthful, with an average age of just 22 when they won the league title in 1956, they captured the climate of freedom that was spreading across Britain in the late Fifties, as the gloom of the immediate post-war era lifted. Rationing was out, rock 'n' roll was in.

'Most of our people have never had it so good,' said the Tory Prime Minister Harold Macmillan in July 1957, just seven months before the Munich crash - words that epitomised the heady atmosphere of the day.

Many of the United stars who died in the snowy wastes of Germany were part of the new generation.

TOGETHER, the team was known as the 'Busby Babes', a soubriquet that reflected their youth and their manager's devotion to open, attacking football. 'Go out there and enjoy it,' was one of Busby's instructions to his players.

The demise of that glorious group in 1958 might have spelt the end of United, but the will of one young man ensured that it was the beginning of a new, golden era.

Busby's assistant, the hard-nosed Welshman Jimmy Murphy - who had, in his manager's words, 'a voice like a cement mixer' - inspired incredible devotion from his young charges.

In the immediate aftermath of Munich, Murphy held the club together, fighting back to build a makeshift side which included the inexperienced, the unknown and the has-been.

Somehow, while Busby was fighting for his life and then recovering from his death-threatening wounds, Murphy was able to ride a tidal wave of popular sympathy to drag his team to the FA Cup Final at Wembley.

They lost to Bolton, but Murphy had shown that United would survive.

And in the subsequent decades, the club has gone on to become the biggest and richest in the world, with support stretching from Manchester to Malta and as far as Malaysia.

Yet the families of those directly affected by Munich, the widows and the survivors, have shared none of the riches - there was no compensation in those days.

Jackie Blanchflower, for example, who smashed his pelvis, damaged his internal organs and almost lost his right arm in the crash, was forced to lead a sad, twilight existence after Munich ended his career, working as a bookmaker and a pub landlord.

Despite his wife, Jean, being pregnant, he was kicked out of his Manchester United club house soon after the crash, when it became obvious he would never play again.

Once, when he tried to get a ticket for a match at Old Trafford, he was turned away. The only offer he had from the club was as a workman loading pies onto the lorries of the company run by chairman Louis Edwards.

'Jackie always told me that he was living like an animal,' says Munich survivor Harry Gregg. Blanchflower died in 1998, partly from kidney failure resulting from the long-term injuries incurred at Munich.

Busby, the remarkable survivor of the crash, rightly won international admiration for his battle in overcoming his injuries to rebuild the club.

But, as Connor's book reveals, in the process of restoring glory, he was extremely ruthless and showed little empathy for his fellow survivors.

'Matt basically cut us off,' says Albert Scanlon, who was initially given up for dead at Munich. 'He made a promise and never kept it. He told me that financially I would be all right.' But five years after leaving Old Trafford, and struggling to earn his living, he recalled: 'I saw Matt outside the ground and he didn't want to know.' After a succession of poorly paid jobs, Scanlon now lives in a damp council flat, in which he has no telephone and has to feed coins into a meter to keep the electricity running.

Others lost out after Munich, such as Kenny Morgans, who was moved on without ceremony to the Welsh club Swansea and subsequently lived in poverty.

Similarly, Johnny Berry, who suffered serious head injuries, saw his family evicted from their house, owned by the club, within months of the disaster. The news of his sacking came in the post.

He went on to work as a labourer and worked in his brother's sports clothing business, but he never really recovered from the experience of Munich and died in 1994.

'My father went away to play football as one man and returned as a completely different person,' says his son, Neil.

'The Munich air crash changed the life of my family for ever. We were all traumatised by it and suffered indescribable private grief.' The bitterness felt by Berry's widow, Hilda, is shared by many who went through the disaster.

When the club opened its museum, for instance, some of the families donated souvenirs, including shirts and medals.

Yet while the museum raises about £1.3 million a year at Old Trafford, the families are charged to see their own heirlooms. 'Most of dad's stuff is in there, but if I want to go and see the exhibition, I have to pay a fiver,' says Laurie Blanchflower, the son of Jackie.

Such were the depths of resentment that in 1997, the families launched a campaign to get some compensation from United.

The reaction from the club's then chairman, Martin Edwards, to one of the campaign organisers, former United player John Docherty, was: 'But why now, after all this time?' Docherty replied: 'Because they are skint, that's why.'

Yet even though a testimonial match held by the club on the 40th anniversary of the disaster raised almost £1million, the way the proceeds were distributed led only to further grievances.

The families each received £47,000, but this was less than half the sum paid to Eric Cantona, the French former United star, as a one off fee and expenses for the game.

'It has all been so much PR b******t,' was the verdict of Harry Gregg.

Some of these reactions are perhaps unfair. After all, the disaster took place in an era without compensation or counselling, when people were expected to bear hardship with fortitude. 'We won't have none of this blubbering,' said the father of David Pegg at his son's funeral.

Football in the Fifties, with its low wages and harsh working conditions, reflected those austere values. Yet there is no doubt that, as the game has become infinitely richer, the families of the Munich victims have suffered a raw deal.

It is undeniable that their agony helped to turn United into a temple of wealth, but they shared none of it. All they are left with are the memories of their beloved.

June Baker, the widow of another United player, the warm-hearted, genial Mark Jones, says of her weekly pilgrimages to his graveside 'On the 6th of February, I am not fit to talk to, so I go with some flowers and just sit there a while. I'm not ever going to forget him.' For all its present tribulations, with uneven form and disciplinary problems on the field and boardroom rows off it, Manchester United is still the wealthiest, most successful club in the world.

That rise to global stature was started in the desolation of Munich.

Old Trafford owes a huge debt to the men who lost their lives on that wretched February afternoon.

Some would say, it is a debt that has never been properly paid.

[Goataldo]

If you really want to slag them off, there's plenty material there. Fanstastic post.

Why resort to trying to annoy them because some of their folk died when there's so much shit we have on them? It's more impactful, it actually shows them as scum and supporters of scum. Rather than showing ourselves in a bad light by going for a low blow. I'm not taking the moral high ground, it's the moral normal ground.

[mcfc1632]

Why I said in my earlier post that people are over-sensitive -this is the real scandal - this hypocrisy of the scum should be kept alive and exposed

[john68]

Thanks Blues Clues...That info seems to carry more weight when quoted from a published book, rather than the rantings of a cab driver. It is info that many of us on here alreadyknew or at least should have.
The mere chanting odf Munich is quite meaningless unless those rags who are on the reciecing end are made to understand how despicable their club's actions were and how rotten to the core it still remains. If the rags were made to understand that, then the taunts of Munichs would carry so much more weight,
It would convey to them that the club theysupport is utter shite...almost criminally so and that by supporting it, they also support the actions of their club.

I have argued those points for many years, but iot was only on here when I first joined and read one of KK's posts did I realise that I wasn't alone and someone else thought like me.

God, I fucking hate that fucking club and the sooner they disappear from the face of the earth the better. The fact that they carry the name of Manchester is a stain on our great City.

[the_georgian_genius]

He should take the genius out of his name because he's not fooling anyone, right?

Please don't compare a terrorist attack on innocent people which not only killed but also changed thousands of people's lives in a way you could never imagine, and not just in the US but all over the world, and not just the victims of the actual attack but also innocent muslims trying to get on with their own daily life and now face prejudice because of one certain group, to an unplanned and unfortunate plane crash that killed 21 people.

I feel sorry for the families of the air disasters, or any tragedy for that matter, but not for United as a club because they've cashed in on it ever since.

Are you for real? Both incidents came out with the same outcome, innocent people (alot of them young on both incidents) both dying. Both should be respected and not used to wind anyone up. How fucked up are people to mention the death of innocent people in a shocking incident to wind up another person??? It's sick, always has been always will be and no amount of pathetic justification will change that. You sing or mention munich then you are celebrating the death of innocent young men 50 years ago to wind up the opposition, don't say anything different as it's just bullshit.

why would you say something like that to your family? quite odd...

Nevermind kinkylola.

[Wooders]

I can live with the brain dead neanderthals doing it - its part of the club and most probably will never go away
What I do find cringeworthy and embarrasing is the more intellegent fans defending it - as exhibited by some in this thread - you know, like "its not as bad as the holocaust so its fine" or "they used it for marketing purposes, so we're within our rights to throw it in their faces"
It's not on that's the end of it for me, now amount of justification, however valid, will ever convince me that we can just use a disaster like munich to wind people up

[the_georgian_genius]

I can live with the brain dead neanderthals doing it - its part of the club and most probably will never go away
What I do find cringeworthy and embarrasing is the more intellegent fans defending it - as exhibited by some in this thread - you know, like "its not as bad as the holocaust so its fine" or "they used it for marketing purposes, so we're within our rights to throw it in their faces"
It's not on that's the end of it for me, now amount of justification, however valid, will ever convince me that we can just use a disaster like munich to wind people up

Sense at fucking last!

[Mase]

He should take the genius out of his name because he's not fooling anyone, right?

Please don't compare a terrorist attack on innocent people which not only killed but also changed thousands of people's lives in a way you could never imagine, and not just in the US but all over the world, and not just the victims of the actual attack but also innocent muslims trying to get on with their own daily life and now face prejudice because of one certain group, to an unplanned and unfortunate plane crash that killed 21 people.

I feel sorry for the families of the air disasters, or any tragedy for that matter, but not for United as a club because they've cashed in on it ever since.

Are you for real? Both incidents came out with the same outcome, innocent people (alot of them young on both incidents) both dying. Both should be respected and not used to wind anyone up. How fucked up are people to mention the death of innocent people in a shocking incident to wind up another person??? It's sick, always has been always will be and no amount of pathetic justification will change that. You sing or mention munich then you are celebrating the death of innocent young men 50 years ago to wind up the opposition, don't say anything different as it's just bullshit.

why would you say something like that to your family? quite odd...

Nevermind kinkylola.

Absolute rubbish!! So if by your reasoning we're allowed to compare the two, and you're saying "You sing or mention munich then you are celebrating the death of innocent young men 50 years ago" would a person who is of black ethnicity, but use the 'n' word occasionally, be taking the piss out of what his ancestors went through years ago? It depends how a word is actually used. For example if I wanted to sing, "Carlos Tevez is a blue, he hates munichs!" I may be referring to the group of people stood to the left of me, but not celebrating the death of innocent young men.

[Mase]

I can live with the brain dead neanderthals doing it - its part of the club and most probably will never go away
What I do find cringeworthy and embarrasing is the more intellegent fans defending it - as exhibited by some in this thread - you know, like "its not as bad as the holocaust so its fine" or "they used it for marketing purposes, so we're within our rights to throw it in their faces"
It's not on that's the end of it for me, now amount of justification, however valid, will ever convince me that we can just use a disaster like munich to wind people up

Who's said that "its not as bad as the holocaust so its fine" mate?

[Socrates]

I can live with the brain dead neanderthals doing it - its part of the club and most probably will never go away
What I do find cringeworthy and embarrasing is the more intellegent fans defending it - as exhibited by some in this thread - you know, like "its not as bad as the holocaust so its fine" or "they used it for marketing purposes, so we're within our rights to throw it in their faces"
It's not on that's the end of it for me, now amount of justification, however valid, will ever convince me that we can just use a disaster like munich to wind people up

Who's said that "its not as bad as the holocaust so its fine" mate?

Think it was Robert Mugabe.

[the_georgian_genius]

He should take the genius out of his name because he's not fooling anyone, right?

Please don't compare a terrorist attack on innocent people which not only killed but also changed thousands of people's lives in a way you could never imagine, and not just in the US but all over the world, and not just the victims of the actual attack but also innocent muslims trying to get on with their own daily life and now face prejudice because of one certain group, to an unplanned and unfortunate plane crash that killed 21 people.

I feel sorry for the families of the air disasters, or any tragedy for that matter, but not for United as a club because they've cashed in on it ever since.

Are you for real? Both incidents came out with the same outcome, innocent people (alot of them young on both incidents) both dying. Both should be respected and not used to wind anyone up. How fucked up are people to mention the death of innocent people in a shocking incident to wind up another person??? It's sick, always has been always will be and no amount of pathetic justification will change that. You sing or mention munich then you are celebrating the death of innocent young men 50 years ago to wind up the opposition, don't say anything different as it's just bullshit.

why would you say something like that to your family? quite odd...

Nevermind kinkylola.

Absolute rubbish!! So if by your reasoning we're allowed to compare the two, and you're saying "You sing or mention munich then you are celebrating the death of innocent young men 50 years ago" would a person who is of black ethnicity, but use the 'n' word occasionally, be taking the piss out of what his ancestors went through years ago? It depends how a word is actually used. For example if I wanted to sing, "Carlos Tevez is a blue, he hates munichs!" I may be referring to the group of people stood to the left of me, but not celebrating the death of innocent young men.

I tell you what then, you go and find a black person and wind him up by calling him the 'N' word and see what the response is and don't give me all that bollocks about it's how the word is used.

Using the word 'Munich' means only one thing - you are celebrating the death of 23 innocent people 52 years ago that included one of our fucking hall of famers and greatest players to ever play for our club.

If you think using the word munich is acceptable then you have probably sung the "who's that dying on the runway" song which IS a celebration of the death of the people that died in munich including one of our fucking hall of famers and greatest players to ever play for our club.

If you really cannot see that mate then bloody hell, i don't know what to do. There is no justifacation for it. Yes the rags have milked it, yes they have been disrespectful in the memory of it themselves by whoring it out as a money making scheme and yes their treatment of the survivors was disgraceful BUT whether you use the word to sing Carlos Tevez hates munichs, or to say "hahaha have that you munich bastards" or "it's matt busby and his boys making all the fucking noise, cos they can't get the aeroplane to go" then you are celebrating the death of 23 innocent people 52 years ago THAT INCLUDED ONE OF OUR FUCKING HALL OF FAMERS AND GREATEST PLAYERS TO EVER PLAY FOR OUR CLUB.

[Beefymcfc]

I can't believe how some people are getting heated up over it. Next time you're at the match and you hear somone around you singing it, tell them your thoughts and see what they say. I don't reckon any single person sings it because they want to celebrate the deaths of so many, but because it is a way to get at the Rags; nothing more.

The end.

[the_georgian_genius]

I can't believe how some people are getting heated up over it. Next time you're at the match and you hear somone around you singing it, tell them your thoughts and see what they say. I don't reckon any single person sings it because they want to celebrate the deaths of so many, but because it is a way to get at the Rags; nothing more.

The end.

So, so wrong and it is saddening to see that people think that is an acceptable justification for it.

[Beefymcfc]

I can't believe how some people are getting heated up over it. Next time you're at the match and you hear somone around you singing it, tell them your thoughts and see what they say. I don't reckon any single person sings it because they want to celebrate the deaths of so many, but because it is a way to get at the Rags; nothing more.

The end.

So, so wrong and it is saddening to see that people think that is an acceptable justification for it.

Don't talk bollox man and don't give me the 'All High and Mighty' approach. I personally do not sing any Munich songs since I was old enough to understand them, but the truth is, there are lots who do and it's not out of disrespect but out of a sense of goading; like prodding away at their fickle little minds with a shitty stick.

What really pisses me off is people like yourself who feel the need to tell people who they are and box them up in a nice little place so you can feel above them. Are any of these people really having ago at the Munich Disaster? Well I think the recent Derby where 3000 City fans stood back-to-back with United in a tribute to those lost souls can tell you that; does the word 'Impeccable' spring to your mind?

I tell you what mate, like I said, why not go down to the SS and East Corner and start your own songs that display the same vitriol, but that gives them true respect that they obviously deserve. But maybe, just maybe you'll understand what goes on between 2 sets of fans who show a real hatred for each other during such a game, and possibly some of their very own flying with their arms out asking why we ain't giving it them.

Like I say, I don't do it but if someone else wants to, then crack on - I ain't your keeper!

[the_georgian_genius]

I can't believe how some people are getting heated up over it. Next time you're at the match and you hear somone around you singing it, tell them your thoughts and see what they say. I don't reckon any single person sings it because they want to celebrate the deaths of so many, but because it is a way to get at the Rags; nothing more.

The end.

So, so wrong and it is saddening to see that people think that is an acceptable justification for it.

Don't talk bollox man and don't give me the 'All High and Mighty' approach. I personally do not sing any Munich songs since I was old enough to understand them, but the truth is, there are lots who do and it's not out of disrespect but out of a sense of goading; like prodding away at their fickle little minds with a shitty stick.

What really pisses me off is people like yourself who feel the need to tell people who they are and box them up in a nice little place so you can feel above them. Are any of these people really having ago at the Munich Disaster? Well I think the recent Derby where 3000 City fans stood back-to-back with United in a tribute to those lost souls can tell you that; does the word 'Impeccable' spring to your mind?

I tell you what mate, like I said, why not go down to the SS and East Corner and start your own songs that display the same vitriol, but that gives them true respect that they obviously deserve. But maybe, just maybe you'll understand what goes on between 2 sets of fans who show a real hatred for each other during such a game, and possibly some of their very own flying with their arms out asking why we ain't giving it them.

Like I say, I don't do it but if someone else wants to, then crack on - I ain't your keeper!

Let me ask you this question then mate before it goes on and on and on with no end. What if the rags started calling us Big Malcs in reference to us to wind us up, even going as far as what some city fans do with the aeroplane movements with their arms by prentending to smoke a cigar at the next derby? Would that be acceptable and just part of the game or would it be a sad and pathetic excuse of a wind up because they are celebrating death?

Like i said, you obviously don't understand it and have been brought up thinking it is ok and part and parcel of football but i know if anyone called me a Big Malc then i would just look at them thinking they are pathetic and worthless being in their company which i have done in the past including fellow blues, and that is no being houlier than hou or all high and mighty, it's just common sense and common decency.

[Goataldo]

Gerard Houlier Than Thou!

Sorry. Ahem.

[Mase]

even going as far as what some city fans do with the aeroplane movements with their arms

Mate, I think you'll find that it's the rag fans that do that as much, if not more than City fans. In fact, I've never seen one City fan do that. I sit next to the away fans, and on derby day there's a sea of the twats doing it to the City fans. I've never understood it myself.

[Beefymcfc]

I can't believe how some people are getting heated up over it. Next time you're at the match and you hear somone around you singing it, tell them your thoughts and see what they say. I don't reckon any single person sings it because they want to celebrate the deaths of so many, but because it is a way to get at the Rags; nothing more.

The end.

So, so wrong and it is saddening to see that people think that is an acceptable justification for it.

Don't talk bollox man and don't give me the 'All High and Mighty' approach. I personally do not sing any Munich songs since I was old enough to understand them, but the truth is, there are lots who do and it's not out of disrespect but out of a sense of goading; like prodding away at their fickle little minds with a shitty stick.

What really pisses me off is people like yourself who feel the need to tell people who they are and box them up in a nice little place so you can feel above them. Are any of these people really having ago at the Munich Disaster? Well I think the recent Derby where 3000 City fans stood back-to-back with United in a tribute to those lost souls can tell you that; does the word 'Impeccable' spring to your mind?

I tell you what mate, like I said, why not go down to the SS and East Corner and start your own songs that display the same vitriol, but that gives them true respect that they obviously deserve. But maybe, just maybe you'll understand what goes on between 2 sets of fans who show a real hatred for each other during such a game, and possibly some of their very own flying with their arms out asking why we ain't giving it them.

Like I say, I don't do it but if someone else wants to, then crack on - I ain't your keeper!

Let me ask you this question then mate before it goes on and on and on with no end. What if the rags started calling us Big Malcs in reference to us to wind us up, even going as far as what some city fans do with the aeroplane movements with their arms by prentending to smoke a cigar at the next derby? Would that be acceptable and just part of the game or would it be a sad and pathetic excuse of a wind up because they are celebrating death?

Like i said, you obviously don't understand it and have been brought up thinking it is ok and part and parcel of football but i know if anyone called me a Big Malc then i would just look at them thinking they are pathetic and worthless being in their company which i have done in the past including fellow blues, and that is no being houlier than hou or all high and mighty, it's just common sense and common decency.

Ha ha ha, it gets worse. I fully understand it after growing up with it but rivalry's in football aren't about sitting still and applauding when something goes right and bowing your head when it goes wrong; the passion of such occassions gets to people and the group momentum takes over from the individual.

And who says they won't do the Big Mal thing, there's always a few and once they do they'll be greeted with and angry reposte of 'You Munich Bastard' I'd suggest. And that's it there in a nutshell, tit-4-tat and whatever your virtues, you don't actually have any way of stopping it and it will only be time that does.

One thing I'd like to know from yourself is where do you sit and what songs do you sing, and did you ever go to Maine Road in the Kippax or North Stand?