Could we play a 442 formation?

[gillie]

With the midfielders we have i for one think we could but a certain Mr Barry would have to be a bench warmer.The reason i ask this question is it is blindingly obvious that Carlos needs help up front.So come on guys answer the question could we or not and if not why.

[brite blu sky]

We should play without a striker like Spain for some games, so forget 4-4-2 imo

[Chad]

I think that we could get away with a variation of it in certain home games where we are almost certain that the oppostion are going to set up shop and play for a 0-0 or a breakaway goal. In these games we could probably leave out Barry and NDJ and play Toure in a more disciplined role with Silva at the head of a diamond behind two strikers.

At the very highest level though, I think 442 is dead and buried as the midfield will be over run against teams with an extra body in there, especially away from home. Just looking at Liverpool's visit to COMS and Spurs' trip to Young Boys shows that playing away with only 2 central midfielders means you lose control of the game against decent opposition.

In the World Cup the only team that got anywhere who played anything like a 442 were Uruguay and their two centre midfielders were both holding players like we saw from teams like Brazil and Holland.

[Ted Hughes]

No.

[Grob]

If we practiced it enough, yes.

We could play any formation

[dazby]

Not sure that's a good enough reason Gillie. The 4 2 3 1 and it's mutations is here to stay.

[Ted Hughes]

Teams that play 4-4-2 properly, have wide players who deliver regular quality into the penalty area, high, low, long, short & forwards who sniff out where the ball will end up, near post far post etc, like rags & Spurs do.

We have wide players who rarely create a goal from that position & forwards who wander around anywhere but in position to score from such a ball. Other than the Adebayor Arsenal header, how many goals have we scored like that? I bet Darren Fletcher has as many goals like that as all our forwards put together. People go up their own arses with highbrow tactical shite about how you 'don't need' to do that; well with 4-4-2 yes you fucking do. Otherwise you're playing the wrong formation.

Mancini has said he plans to use it sometimes but imo it was Hughes' & Mancini's biggest mistake last season. If we do use it, I'd rather have Kolarov & Boateng playing wide midfield than any of our wide players as they are better than our official widemen at delivering the ball from there (& that includes Milner).

[Socrates]

could we? yes!

but why on earth would we want to? even harder to break down teams that set up for 0-0 if you are outnumbered in central midfield!

[Blue Since 76]

4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 means at least 3 players getting forwards. Why would we therefore want to go with just 2 against poorer teams and surrender midfield as well?

Apart from Spurs, no top team plays 4-4-2. I suspect there's a reason for that

[Kladze]

4-4-2 is rapidly being consigned to the dustbin of history just as forcibly as the 2-3-5 formation was which I began watching football to - and rightly so.

4-3-3, 4-5-1 and their variants are much more flexible and, has as been pointed out they don't get swallowed up in central midfield.

4-4-2 also doesn't suit slick passing teams, the kind of team I hope (and believe) that Mancini is trying to provide us with.

[Ted Hughes]

4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 means at least 3 players getting forwards. Why would we therefore want to go with just 2 against poorer teams and surrender midfield as well?

Apart from Spurs, no top team plays 4-4-2. I suspect there's a reason for that

Rags still use it often when attacking & often don't have a defensive midfielder either. The main reason it fails is imo down to lack of quality genuine defenders that don't need so much help, midfield players who can do all jobs rather than just one, wingers who can attack & defend & produce quality & tough strikers who can either hold or attack the ball. If we met a team playing 4-4-2 that had Colin Bell & R** Ke**e in midfield with people like Mike Doyle & Tony Book behind them, Summerbee & Coppell on the wings with Shearer & Ferdinand up front, it would fuck us up badly & shove our 4-5-1 up our arses. We'd have no defense against it. Luckily we only have to deal with Spurs, which is still a struggle for us at the moment but we're getting there.

[ronk]

442 becomes more effective as teams get less used to countering it. We have the players to allow us to setup differently. Against teams like Liverpool, I've always thought that the midfield battle is key so 442 isn't really possible without a very well worked out system.

Ireland are using it at the moment and you can see that they're still learning it and adapting. But it's become quite effective and adaptable for us. I'm not sure if the strength of 442 lies in switching to it when chasing the game and therein lies the problem. What we are likely to need is a way to change gears for when we're chasing goals.

[Pretty Boy Lee]

What do Chelsea play? I'd argue they play 442 quite often and they won the league.

[kinkylola]

What do Chelsea play? I'd argue they play 442 quite often and they won the league.

alright, let's hear your argument and the support.

I don't think they played a standard 442 but I'd be interested to hear your side

[Kladze]

What do Chelsea play? I'd argue they play 442 quite often and they won the league.

alright, let's hear your argument and the support.

I don't think they played a standard 442 but I'd be interested to hear your side

Chelsea play a very flexible 4-3-3 ... which, as it happens, is what Mancini is trying to get us to do.

[Ted Hughes]

Chelsea sometimes now play a midfield 'diamond' when they use 2 strikers so you could sort of call it 4-4-2 but I don't. Mourinho often played 4-3-3 especially when Robben was available but I would describe Ancelotti's system as 4-1-2-1-2 when Anelka & Drogba play & they user also various 4-3-3 type formations. Although I haven't particularly studied them this season, I wouldn't say we see 4-4-2 that often with Chelsea.

[Kladze]

Chelsea sometimes now play a midfield 'diamond' when they use 2 strikers so you could sort of call it 4-4-2 but I don't. Mourinho often played 4-3-3 especially when Robben was available but I would describe Ancelotti's system as 4-1-2-1-2 when Anelka & Drogba play & they user also various 4-3-3 type formations. Although I haven't particularly studied them this season, I wouldn't say we see 4-4-2 that often with Chelsea.

Precisely.
It's a 4-3-3 which can be effectively and seamlessly switched to the diamond formation (or 4-5-1 when defending - or for the whole game, as the situation demands)

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 means at least 3 players getting forwards. Why would we therefore want to go with just 2 against poorer teams and surrender midfield as well?

Apart from Spurs, no top team plays 4-4-2. I suspect there's a reason for that

Rags still use it often when attacking & often don't have a defensive midfielder either. The main reason it fails is imo down to lack of quality genuine defenders that don't need so much help, midfield players who can do all jobs rather than just one, wingers who can attack & defend & produce quality & tough strikers who can either hold or attack the ball. If we met a team playing 4-4-2 that had Colin Bell & R** Ke**e in midfield with people like Mike Doyle & Tony Book behind them, Summerbee & Coppell on the wings with Shearer & Ferdinand up front, it would fuck us up badly & shove our 4-5-1 up our arses. We'd have no defense against it. Luckily we only have to deal with Spurs, which is still a struggle for us at the moment but we're getting there.

I'd largely agree with this. Proper defenders. Midfield players doing the full range of defending and attacking and wingers that take players on, beat them, going to the line and crossing, rather than all this cutting back inside bollox.

[Socrates]

4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 means at least 3 players getting forwards. Why would we therefore want to go with just 2 against poorer teams and surrender midfield as well?

Apart from Spurs, no top team plays 4-4-2. I suspect there's a reason for that

Rags still use it often when attacking & often don't have a defensive midfielder either. The main reason it fails is imo down to lack of quality genuine defenders that don't need so much help, midfield players who can do all jobs rather than just one, wingers who can attack & defend & produce quality & tough strikers who can either hold or attack the ball. If we met a team playing 4-4-2 that had Colin Bell & R** Ke**e in midfield with people like Mike Doyle & Tony Book behind them, Summerbee & Coppell on the wings with Shearer & Ferdinand up front, it would fuck us up badly & shove our 4-5-1 up our arses. We'd have no defense against it. Luckily we only have to deal with Spurs, which is still a struggle for us at the moment but we're getting there.

I'd largely agree with this. Proper defenders. Midfield players doing the full range of defending and attacking and wingers that take players on, beat them, going to the line and crossing, rather than all this cutting back inside bollox.

Crossing to who? Nial Quinn doesn't play for us anymore. How many times does AJ have to cut in and play a killer pass/score/create havoc and win a penalty before the penny finally drops with people?

[Douglas Higginbottom]

It's all about flexibility and fluidity.England played a 4.4.2 in theory last friday but in reality it was more a 4.4.1.1 with Shrek dropping deep. You could argue that it was actually a 4.2.3.1 with the 2 wide players joining Shrek behind Defoe and Gerrard and Barry sitting a little in midfield to dictate the play. The wide players with Shrek and the two full backs are given a lot of licence to get forward so you potentially have a veryattacking line up. But if the manager so decides it can also be a cautioary line up if the manager puts the reins on players getting forward.

I think it's quite funny when systems are referred to all the time but most of what I see is not that regimented.I don't think Tevez will ever be an orthadox part of a 4.4.2 as he likes to come so deep looking for the ball but that's fine when others can run past him to make it so difficult for defenders to know what to do. All of it though depends on quality of players and their understanding of what's going on.