England / France - Failure & Responses

[ant london]

Well that's all great but seeing as you were basing that entire post on the premise gathered from your girlfriend, I should point out she is wrong. The AFL has an AIS academy, but most players are drafted from the state leagues after having come through their colts(u18) ranks.

Did I say that this was where ALL the players come from?

no, I don't think I did

Did I say that it would preclude clubs from having their own youth set ups too?

no I also dont think I did

Now why don't you try and offer something useful? Or not, as is often the case

[Slim]

Well that's all great but seeing as you were basing that entire post on the premise gathered from your girlfriend, I should point out she is wrong. The AFL has an AIS academy, but most players are drafted from the state leagues after having come through their colts(u18) ranks.

Did I say that this was where ALL the players come from?

no, I don't think I did

Did I say that it would preclude clubs from having their own youth set ups too?

no I also dont think I did

Now why don't you try and offer something useful? Or not, as is often the case

No, but you did say it was a league wide academy, this is simply not the case. In fact, if the entire of your point is based around the high level coming from this academy, you are really making a point for the complete opposite of what you intend because the exceptional players do not come from there.

I am sure there is an idea that will, every two years we talk over these same ideas at great length and every year nothing gets done, so if you want my contribution, I would check my posts around the summer of 2006 cause I am sure we didn't do it for the euro's we weren't in.

[Ted Hughes]

I think that the rags squad mentioned came through before the academy system was started & were mainly found & coached by people like brian Kidd.

Not sure the rags have produced anyone of real quality since the academy system was introduced. It was an improvement for us at the time but imo that's because Brian Kidd & Co had pinched all the best players for the rags whilst people such as Kendal & Peter Reid had ruined our system at the same time & left us with nothing.

Previous to that we'd had a side largely made up from our own products discovered by Ken Barnes . No one at the club since has been as successful in finding quality players.

[Fish111]

I am not a qualified coach and i have never been to youth teams training session but i have watched a shit load of kids games over the years, my son, neices & nephews etc at all levels and at all ages. One thing that seems to stand out for me is that it is a win at all cost mentality. Skill, composure and technique are clearly not evident and it is kick and rush football all the time. Parents on the sidelines are a fuckin disgrace and what talent there is on show are hacked down at every opporunity and half kicked to death.
Until the coaching skills are improved and they get rid of leagues and competitions for 5 to 9 year olds then things will never change. Kids between 10 & 12 years old should play on a smaller pitch with smaller goals and the ball should not be allowed above head height, as in 5 a side, this i believe will enhance skill & technique.
Until coaching improves then England will win fuck all. Milner, Lennon, Young & Walcott are Englands best young players and they are nowhere near international standard.

[Bingo Lewis]

England should have fucked off all the Superstars a la Lampard, Terry, Ferdinand, etc when we didn't qualify for the Euro's, and gone with the stars of tomorrow giving them 2 years of playing together with Hunger for glory, before the billy big bollocks-ness kicked in on them. This Tournament we could have had a team like;

-----------------Hart

Johnson--Dawson--Lescott--Cole

Lennon--Gerrard---Barry--Young

------Rooney---Agbonglahor

which I think would work together much better than the bunch of primadonna's we've got wearing the three lions at the moment, plus they'd have had a solid 2 years playing together for England, forming partnerships and friendships. Just a shame nobody has the balls to wipe the slate clean really.

[Ted Hughes]

Can't disagree with much in either of those 2 posts.

[Slim]

I was looking at the English squad in four years.

Hart
Johnson--Dawson--Lescott--Baines
Lennon--Huddlestone--Milner--Young
Rooney--Agbonlahor

And thats with the likes of Bent, C.Cole, Walcott, Cahill, Shawcross, Defoe, Richards, Onuoha, Rodwell, Smalling, Catamole and Caroll in the squad.

Not a great squad on paper, certainly not on Spain's level, but I think if we actually played like a team, that squad would probably get further than the primadonnas we currently field.

[Ted Hughes]

I was looking at the English squad in four years.

Hart
Johnson--Dawson--Lescott--Baines
Lennon--Huddlestone--Milner--Young
Rooney--Agbonlahor

And thats with the likes of Bent, C.Cole, Walcott, Cahill, Shawcross, Defoe, Richards, Onuoha, Rodwell, Smalling, Catamole and Caroll in the squad.

Not a great squad on paper, certainly not on Spain's level, but I think if we actually played like a team, that squad would probably get further than the primadonnas we currently field.

So you're snubbing AJ as well as Capello?

[Slim]

I was looking at the English squad in four years.

Hart
Johnson--Dawson--Lescott--Baines
Lennon--Huddlestone--Milner--Young
Rooney--Agbonlahor

And thats with the likes of Bent, C.Cole, Walcott, Cahill, Shawcross, Defoe, Richards, Onuoha, Rodwell, Smalling, Catamole and Caroll in the squad.

Not a great squad on paper, certainly not on Spain's level, but I think if we actually played like a team, that squad would probably get further than the primadonnas we currently field.

So you're snubbing AJ as well as Capello?

Oops, I'd play AJ over Lennon. Cannot believe I missed Jinky.

[Ted Hughes]

I was looking at the English squad in four years.

Hart
Johnson--Dawson--Lescott--Baines
Lennon--Huddlestone--Milner--Young
Rooney--Agbonlahor

And thats with the likes of Bent, C.Cole, Walcott, Cahill, Shawcross, Defoe, Richards, Onuoha, Rodwell, Smalling, Catamole and Caroll in the squad.

Not a great squad on paper, certainly not on Spain's level, but I think if we actually played like a team, that squad would probably get further than the primadonnas we currently field.

So you're snubbing AJ as well as Capello?

Oops, I'd play AJ over Lennon. Cannot believe I missed Jinky.

I know I'm being optimistic but I've not written off MJ yet either. IF he can get fit & stay fit, he has the skill & football brain to come through even though he's missed a lot of football. Hopefully he's been watching & learning about the game whilst injured.

[Slim]

Agreed, but if we are including him, we should include Sturridge as well as he had the talent but not the attitude...the exact fucking attitude exactly that we are looking to eradicate as it happens, hopefully he learns as well.

[Ted Hughes]

Agreed, but if we are including him, we should include Sturridge as well as he had the talent but not the attitude...the exact fucking attitude exactly that we are looking to eradicate as it happens, hopefully he learns as well.

I'd feel more confident about Sturridge's chances if he was playing at a club like Bolton or Wolves rather than Chelsea. Striker is such a key position, I just can't see him getting the games to learn his stuff & learn about attitude (& he has a lot of learning to do), they'll surely sign another striker before too long.

[Chinners]

Its all our fault the French are out...

A culture of greed and egotism imported from the Premier League was today blamed by French politicians and public for their team's disastrous performance in the World Cup.

As the shamed Les Bleus flew home from South Africa — reportedly in second class — amid an outbreak of national handwringing, the country found a convenient scapegoat on the other side of the Channel, where many stars such as Nicolas Anelka and William Gallas play.

“It's all about individualism, egotism, and everyone for themselves,” said Socialist Party spokesman Jerome Cahuzac, adding: “All that really matters is the size of the cheque.”

As the French media dubbed the players “a bunch of seven-year-olds”, Jean-Pierre Escalettes, president of the French Football Federation, said the “disaster” had brought “shame” on the country. The government promised an inquiry.

Philosopher Alain Finkielkraut called the players products of a “scum” generation, more interested in starting riots on housing estates than integrating into French society.

Chelsea's Anelka, Manchester United's Patrice Evra and Arsenal's Gallas, together with former Arsenal star Thierry Henry, were said to have led a revolt against eccentric outgoing coach Raymond Domenech.

After one draw and one loss in their group games, the 2-1 defeat to South Africa last night put them out of the tournament. The team refused to train on Sunday after Anelka was sent home following a row with Domenech

[ant london]

Philosopher Alain Finkielkraut called the players products of a “scum” generation, more interested in starting riots on housing estates than integrating into French society.

i just had to google him to make sure that was not some classic Chinners!!

[Slim]

Agreed, but if we are including him, we should include Sturridge as well as he had the talent but not the attitude...the exact fucking attitude exactly that we are looking to eradicate as it happens, hopefully he learns as well.

I'd feel more confident about Sturridge's chances if he was playing at a club like Bolton or Wolves rather than Chelsea. Striker is such a key position, I just can't see him getting the games to learn his stuff & learn about attitude (& he has a lot of learning to do), they'll surely sign another striker before too long.

But we are talking four years into the future and who knows what will happen with these players. I am sure that won't be the exact 11 we field in four years time, but it shows a degree of depth there that isn't as dire as people have eluded to.

[Im_Spartacus]

Agreed, but if we are including him, we should include Sturridge as well as he had the talent but not the attitude...the exact fucking attitude exactly that we are looking to eradicate as it happens, hopefully he learns as well.

I'd feel more confident about Sturridge's chances if he was playing at a club like Bolton or Wolves rather than Chelsea. Striker is such a key position, I just can't see him getting the games to learn his stuff & learn about attitude (& he has a lot of learning to do), they'll surely sign another striker before too long.

But we are talking four years into the future and who knows what will happen with these players. I am sure that won't be the exact 11 we field in four years time, but it shows a degree of depth there that isn't as dire as people have eluded to.

It shows a degree of depth that is worrying if they show like the bunch of primadonnas we have playing for us at the moment. The key thing is to find someone to mould them into a TEAM. If that can be done, we will have a chance for the future, but I suppose my op was about 8 years time, and finding and developing the talent and attitude that the current 20 somethings dont have.

If it can't be done, and you already have the likes of billy big times Lennon, Sturridge who will be guaranteed their place in the side for nearly a decade, then the stinking attitude of indifference starts all over again and we will never move forwards.

To be honest, Chinners' post above from the French does hit the nail on the head with everything that has been wrong with England and France. France now have become a victim of their own success earlier at the turn of the century, as their best players have become amongst the highest paid in the world whose every whim is indulged.

[ronk]

There's a system designed to absolutely destroy fragile young players. They're not given nearly enough protection from bad influences and it brings out the worst aspects of their character. Maybe the French system isn't the way either, it's a no hoper given the power dynamic between the clubs and FA.

Talented players like Lampard, Gerrard, Beckham, Rooney are great players who've had teams built around them: the team works for them, not them for the team. They've gotten good at taking up positions where they each control the game and everyone looks to them. It's hard to change the habit of a lifetime when it comes to international time. There aren't that many players in the England team who are more concerned with helping the team and working in the background. Heskey, Barry and Hargreaves being prime examples, clever guys with probably a little less talent. Gerrard needs a free role to flourish because of his lack of positional discipline. But there are lots of guys like SWP and Lennon who put the head down and run without being Messi.

If we want to look at why there are problems with the development of young players then we're all (far too) familiar with the story of Joey Barton: look closely and you'll see everything that's wrong. He's a fucking success story! 65-80k a week for playing in the fucking championship, playing fuck all games and getting a pay rise every time he goes mental and should get sacked. Even has his England cap. He has talent but he's consistently underachieved and has glaring technical weaknesses that have been nurtured and worked around rather than addressed.