hart

[Piccsnumberoneblue]

I'm happy to have either one of them in nets for us.

[btajim]

I don't understand why some want to see Hart sitting in a blue chair.

Hart might feel that City aren't fully committed to him. He was Number 1 and then got dropped immediately when the new Man came in. Now they send him out on loan. It's not unreasonable to think that Hart might be fed up with what's going on here and he'll look for another Club.

He's a great young Keeper but i'm not 100% convinced that he'll be an identical replacement for Given. I don't think he's quite good enough.

[mcfc1632]

I think a lot of poster perhaps miss the point between a 1st choice keeper and back up

Top clubs actually only really have 1 1st choice keeper - the anomaly was Chelski a few years ago and that did not last.

Fact is that top keepers will not simply warm a bench or just play the occasional 2nd tier game

Back up keepers are those that are willing to do that but are able to step in at an acceptable level should something happen to the 1st choice.

Given is a 1st choice - Hart is a 1st choice - Taylor is a back-up

So we need to develop Joe by having him out on loan somewhere where can be 1st choice - we need to keep Shay as our first choice up to the point where it is clear Joe is better (a few years away I would suggest) and we need to consider if Taylor is good enough as back-up - in my view is not - the sort of player I would have wanted is Kuszczak, Sorenson or Jasskelainen - I think that Jasskelainen would be perfect - it might be 1st choice at Bolton but at his stage of his career be willing to 'take the money' and we could pay him more as back up at CITY and give him enough games to keep him happy

Hart will have been out on loan for a season by the time 09/10 finishes and letting him go out on loan again for another season doesn't seem right. Birmingham City will be in the Premiership next season and will presumably be keen on keeping him on a more permanent basis. I understand he's done very well there.

Personally, I want to keep both Hart and Given with a preference for Shay. I think it's important for Hart to feel wanted by City and to continue training the City way. Perhaps also start him for Carling Cup Matches, Europa / CL Matches and even FA Cup. I fully understand that the Guy wants regular first Team Football - but two 'Keepers of good ability doesn't seem an unreasonable request for a Squad challenging on all fronts.

Plus I still believe Given needs some serious competition for the Jersey. Keep him alert.

Well the test would be a question to Joe - whilst you are being groomed to become the CITY No 1 would you a) prefer to be in the club as back-up or b) on loan at BCFC where you are getting game time

Meanwhile we will ensure that you are on a package that reflects your value to the club etc etc - I think that he would go for b) - and I think a) would leave him stale

[fangsanalsatan]

Hart might feel that City aren't fully committed to him. He was Number 1 and then got dropped immediately when the new Man came in. Now they send him out on loan. It's not unreasonable to think that Hart might be fed up with what's going on here and he'll look for another Club.

I would think that Hart is pretty pleased with the current situation. Why should he be fed up? He's 1st choice keeper for a Premier League club. If anything he should be thankful that the club is willing to extend his loan. I don't think calling him back and letting him play the odd Cup game would be in his interest.

[Blue2]

There is only one question to be answered here , irrespective of desires of the two men - who, next season, is the best choice for us?

At the moment I am not sure, at the start of the season I would have said Given, but Hart has improved and Given seems to have gone the opposite way. I am leaning towards Hart getting the job for next season, but there is three months of this season to go yet.

[Im_Spartacus]

There is only one question to be answered here , irrespective of desires of the two men - who, next season, is the best choice for us?

At the moment I am not sure, at the start of the season I would have said Given, but Hart has improved and Given seems to have gone the opposite way. I am leaning towards Hart getting the job for next season, but there is three months of this season to go yet.

I have to disagree about Given going the opposite way. He is exactly the same goalkeeper who was being heralded the best in the world in some sections of the media not two months ago, all that has happened is that we have started to see patterns emerge in his game that it took a fair bit of time to spot.

The weaknesses were always there, he has not become a bad goalkeeper - but maybe we can see now that maybe he is not quite all that we thought he was now all the Euphoria has gone. Worryingly, if it isnt happening already I am sure it soon will - any manager worth his salt will instruct teams to lob balls onto the 6 yard line and watch the carnage that ensues, as I think that is where we have conceded many goals.

Re: Walmai, even if Brum do have 2nd season syndrome, its more practice for the goalkeeper - look at how Ben Watson had his reputation made with those couple of years at Watford where the box was like the Alamo - what killed him off was not getting the first team spot when he got back to the rags. Hopefully, Hart if he carries on progressing next year at Brum wouldnt have to wait too long to make the 1st team slot his own.

[Original Dub]

There is only one question to be answered here , irrespective of desires of the two men - who, next season, is the best choice for us?

At the moment I am not sure, at the start of the season I would have said Given, but Hart has improved and Given seems to have gone the opposite way. I am leaning towards Hart getting the job for next season, but there is three months of this season to go yet.

I have to disagree about Given going the opposite way. He is exactly the same goalkeeper who was being heralded the best in the world in some sections of the media not two months ago, all that has happened is that we have started to see patterns emerge in his game that it took a fair bit of time to spot.
The weaknesses were always there, he has not become a bad goalkeeper - but maybe we can see now that maybe he is not quite all that we thought he was now all the Euphoria has gone. Worryingly, if it isnt happening already I am sure it soon will - any manager worth his salt will instruct teams to lob balls onto the 6 yard line and watch the carnage that ensues, as I think that is where we have conceded many goals.

Re: Walmai, even if Brum do have 2nd season syndrome, its more practice for the goalkeeper - look at how Ben Watson had his reputation made with those couple of years at Watford where the box was like the Alamo - what killed him off was not getting the first team spot when he got back to the rags. Hopefully, Hart if he carries on progressing next year at Brum wouldnt have to wait too long to make the 1st team slot his own.

None of these patterns have ever emerged at international level.

[cityPinoy_fc]

hart is even in his recent form is still way off in dislodging given as no 1 another year worth of experience mite just do the trick.

[Im_Spartacus]

There is only one question to be answered here , irrespective of desires of the two men - who, next season, is the best choice for us?

At the moment I am not sure, at the start of the season I would have said Given, but Hart has improved and Given seems to have gone the opposite way. I am leaning towards Hart getting the job for next season, but there is three months of this season to go yet.

I have to disagree about Given going the opposite way. He is exactly the same goalkeeper who was being heralded the best in the world in some sections of the media not two months ago, all that has happened is that we have started to see patterns emerge in his game that it took a fair bit of time to spot.
The weaknesses were always there, he has not become a bad goalkeeper - but maybe we can see now that maybe he is not quite all that we thought he was now all the Euphoria has gone. Worryingly, if it isnt happening already I am sure it soon will - any manager worth his salt will instruct teams to lob balls onto the 6 yard line and watch the carnage that ensues, as I think that is where we have conceded many goals.

Re: Walmai, even if Brum do have 2nd season syndrome, its more practice for the goalkeeper - look at how Ben Watson had his reputation made with those couple of years at Watford where the box was like the Alamo - what killed him off was not getting the first team spot when he got back to the rags. Hopefully, Hart if he carries on progressing next year at Brum wouldnt have to wait too long to make the 1st team slot his own.

None of these patterns have ever imerged at international level.

I know your view is about the quality of our defence, and I had read a view on another site suggesting that rather than Given being behind a poor defence, he is the reason why the defence of the clubs he has played for are poor, not a view I can agree with, but I can understand why someone would think that way - especially as Newcastle fans had the same reservations about the same areas of his game that we do.

I am not in a position to disagree with you in terms of Ireland as I don't see enough of him to comment, but maybe an international line up is much more stable than the transient population of a football club, which gives all involved a lot more time to learn to cover for others' weaknesses?

I found this from a Newcastle fans site though, which would agree that what we are seeing here is not too dissimilar to his time there.

http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcpla ... iven.shtml

Shay Given - Strengths & Weaknesses
Strengths..................................................Weaknesses
Handling, throwing & kicking (much improved).......Commanding his area
Shot-stopping, agility & reflexes........................Communication (improving)
Sweeping up & reading of the game....................Penalties
Commitment, loyalty & professionalism................Crosses (improving)
Vast Experience in Europe & on the international stage

Comment
As a goalkeeper Shay doesn't have many flaws and is without doubt one of the best 'keepers in Europe, performing to a consistently high standard for both club and country for numerous years now. Indeed he improves with every season. However he does have one or two flaws to his game. Namely commanding his area which he needs to start taking more control over and showing more authority and aggression in and around the box. He is improving the other weak areas of his game though such as communication and coming for crosses. Overall, the Ireland man is a genuine world-class goalie and one of - if not the best ever - to wear our No.1 jersey.

[Original Dub]

There is only one question to be answered here , irrespective of desires of the two men - who, next season, is the best choice for us?

At the moment I am not sure, at the start of the season I would have said Given, but Hart has improved and Given seems to have gone the opposite way. I am leaning towards Hart getting the job for next season, but there is three months of this season to go yet.

I have to disagree about Given going the opposite way. He is exactly the same goalkeeper who was being heralded the best in the world in some sections of the media not two months ago, all that has happened is that we have started to see patterns emerge in his game that it took a fair bit of time to spot.
The weaknesses were always there, he has not become a bad goalkeeper - but maybe we can see now that maybe he is not quite all that we thought he was now all the Euphoria has gone. Worryingly, if it isnt happening already I am sure it soon will - any manager worth his salt will instruct teams to lob balls onto the 6 yard line and watch the carnage that ensues, as I think that is where we have conceded many goals.

Re: Walmai, even if Brum do have 2nd season syndrome, its more practice for the goalkeeper - look at how Ben Watson had his reputation made with those couple of years at Watford where the box was like the Alamo - what killed him off was not getting the first team spot when he got back to the rags. Hopefully, Hart if he carries on progressing next year at Brum wouldnt have to wait too long to make the 1st team slot his own.

None of these patterns have ever imerged at international level.

I know your view is about the quality of our defence, and I had read a view on another site suggesting that rather than Given being behind a poor defence, he is the reason why the defence of the clubs he has played for are poor, not a view I can agree with, but I can understand why someone would think that way - especially as Newcastle fans had the same reservations about the same areas of his game that we do.

I am not in a position to disagree with you in terms of Ireland as I don't see enough of him to comment, but maybe an international line up is much more stable than the transient population of a football club, which gives all involved a lot more time to learn to cover for others' weaknesses?

I found this from a Newcastle fans site though, which would agree that what we are seeing here is not too dissimilar to his time there.

http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcpla ... iven.shtml

Shay Given - Strengths & Weaknesses
Strengths..................................................Weaknesses
Handling, throwing & kicking (much improved).......Commanding his area
Shot-stopping, agility & reflexes........................Communication (improving)
Sweeping up & reading of the game....................Penalties
Commitment, loyalty & professionalism................Crosses (improving)
Vast Experience in Europe & on the international stage

Comment
As a goalkeeper Shay doesn't have many flaws and is without doubt one of the best 'keepers in Europe, performing to a consistently high standard for both club and country for numerous years now. Indeed he improves with every season. However he does have one or two flaws to his game. Namely commanding his area which he needs to start taking more control over and showing more authority and aggression in and around the box. He is improving the other weak areas of his game though such as communication and coming for crosses. Overall, the Ireland man is a genuine world-class goalie and one of - if not the best ever - to wear our No.1 jersey.

they consider him to be the best to ever wear the number one jersey for them. I think he's the best to ever wear the number one jersey for Ireland. You say maybe the international set up gives him a more stable defence? That's my point - its just too early to judge him on indivdual weaknesses because there is so much chopping and changing in front of him. That's not to say people are wrong when they say he doesn't command the area well enough... I just think that's "the are" has been a shambles since he got here and I'm not sure how many different defensive line ups and individual defenders have played there over the last year.

Look at it this way - if the players in front know that he will stay on, or damn close to the line, then there's a good chance they'll attack the ball, just like O'Shea and Dunne do... like Cunningham used to for Ireland. Its about understanding each other and leaving no stone unturned as a defensive unit and until we can say the defence itself understands each other, IMO its too early to say for sure that its the keeper's fault.

What we should do is watch the top four in action and see on average who many times in a game the keeper is called upon. how many times he is left exposed. Because right now I'm thinking our keeper is left more exposed than the others and when that happens, there's much more chance of (a) conceding and (b) wanting to stay on the line.

The only FACT is that our defence has been bobbins for a long long time now and if and when they get their act together, if I see that Shay is making fuck ups, I swear to god I'll say it. AND I'll want him dropped/replaced.

But I firmly believe its all too up in the air to make that indivdual judgement.

[Im_Spartacus]

I know your view is about the quality of our defence, and I had read a view on another site suggesting that rather than Given being behind a poor defence, he is the reason why the defence of the clubs he has played for are poor, not a view I can agree with, but I can understand why someone would think that way - especially as Newcastle fans had the same reservations about the same areas of his game that we do.

I am not in a position to disagree with you in terms of Ireland as I don't see enough of him to comment, but maybe an international line up is much more stable than the transient population of a football club, which gives all involved a lot more time to learn to cover for others' weaknesses?

I found this from a Newcastle fans site though, which would agree that what we are seeing here is not too dissimilar to his time there.

http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcpla ... iven.shtml

Shay Given - Strengths & Weaknesses
Strengths..................................................Weaknesses
Handling, throwing & kicking (much improved).......Commanding his area
Shot-stopping, agility & reflexes........................Communication (improving)
Sweeping up & reading of the game....................Penalties
Commitment, loyalty & professionalism................Crosses (improving)
Vast Experience in Europe & on the international stage

Comment
As a goalkeeper Shay doesn't have many flaws and is without doubt one of the best 'keepers in Europe, performing to a consistently high standard for both club and country for numerous years now. Indeed he improves with every season. However he does have one or two flaws to his game. Namely commanding his area which he needs to start taking more control over and showing more authority and aggression in and around the box. He is improving the other weak areas of his game though such as communication and coming for crosses. Overall, the Ireland man is a genuine world-class goalie and one of - if not the best ever - to wear our No.1 jersey.

they consider him to be the best to ever wear the number one jersey for them. I think he's the best to ever wear the number one jersey for Ireland. You say maybe the international set up gives him a more stable defence? That's my point - its just too early to judge him on indivdual weaknesses because there is so much chopping and changing in front of him. That's not to say people are wrong when they say he doesn't command the area well enough... I just think that's "the are" has been a shambles since he got here and I'm not sure how many different defensive line ups and individual defenders have played there over the last year.

Look at it this way - if the players in front know that he will stay on, or damn close to the line, then there's a good chance they'll attack the ball, just like O'Shea and Dunne do... like Cunningham used to for Ireland. Its about understanding each other and leaving no stone unturned as a defensive unit and until we can say the defence itself understands each other, IMO its too early to say for sure that its the keeper's fault.

What we should do is watch the top four in action and see on average who many times in a game the keeper is called upon. how many times he is left exposed. Because right now I'm thinking our keeper is left more exposed than the others and when that happens, there's much more chance of (a) conceding and (b) wanting to stay on the line.

The only FACT is that our defence has been bobbins for a long long time now and if and when they get their act together, if I see that Shay is making fuck ups, I swear to god I'll say it. AND I'll want him dropped/replaced.

But I firmly believe its all too up in the air to make that indivdual judgement.

100% in agreement mate, just re-read my original post and maybe it didnt come across how I meant it. I wasnt trying to say he was a bad keeper, but one who does (like all goalkeepers) have certain deficiencies which are being cruelly exposed for one reason or another in recent weeks. People seemed to hold him up as some sort of god prior to xmas, and all this negativity is not because he is a bad keeper, but because people are disappointed that he is not what they thought he was. All I was trying to say is that he has always been this way, and if thats the case I agree that it is the defence who have to adapt to counteract that weakness.

Given will pull defenders out of the shit all day long with his shot stopping, but he does need the support with crosses - but I think I have said before on a similar thread - Joe was/is just as bad with crosses and command of his area, so people should heed the warning we have had with this change of manager and don't think that change for change's sake is good.

[Original Dub]

I know your view is about the quality of our defence, and I had read a view on another site suggesting that rather than Given being behind a poor defence, he is the reason why the defence of the clubs he has played for are poor, not a view I can agree with, but I can understand why someone would think that way - especially as Newcastle fans had the same reservations about the same areas of his game that we do.

I am not in a position to disagree with you in terms of Ireland as I don't see enough of him to comment, but maybe an international line up is much more stable than the transient population of a football club, which gives all involved a lot more time to learn to cover for others' weaknesses?

I found this from a Newcastle fans site though, which would agree that what we are seeing here is not too dissimilar to his time there.

http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcpla ... iven.shtml

Shay Given - Strengths & Weaknesses
Strengths..................................................Weaknesses
Handling, throwing & kicking (much improved).......Commanding his area
Shot-stopping, agility & reflexes........................Communication (improving)
Sweeping up & reading of the game....................Penalties
Commitment, loyalty & professionalism................Crosses (improving)
Vast Experience in Europe & on the international stage

Comment
As a goalkeeper Shay doesn't have many flaws and is without doubt one of the best 'keepers in Europe, performing to a consistently high standard for both club and country for numerous years now. Indeed he improves with every season. However he does have one or two flaws to his game. Namely commanding his area which he needs to start taking more control over and showing more authority and aggression in and around the box. He is improving the other weak areas of his game though such as communication and coming for crosses. Overall, the Ireland man is a genuine world-class goalie and one of - if not the best ever - to wear our No.1 jersey.

they consider him to be the best to ever wear the number one jersey for them. I think he's the best to ever wear the number one jersey for Ireland. You say maybe the international set up gives him a more stable defence? That's my point - its just too early to judge him on indivdual weaknesses because there is so much chopping and changing in front of him. That's not to say people are wrong when they say he doesn't command the area well enough... I just think that's "the are" has been a shambles since he got here and I'm not sure how many different defensive line ups and individual defenders have played there over the last year.

Look at it this way - if the players in front know that he will stay on, or damn close to the line, then there's a good chance they'll attack the ball, just like O'Shea and Dunne do... like Cunningham used to for Ireland. Its about understanding each other and leaving no stone unturned as a defensive unit and until we can say the defence itself understands each other, IMO its too early to say for sure that its the keeper's fault.

What we should do is watch the top four in action and see on average who many times in a game the keeper is called upon. how many times he is left exposed. Because right now I'm thinking our keeper is left more exposed than the others and when that happens, there's much more chance of (a) conceding and (b) wanting to stay on the line.

The only FACT is that our defence has been bobbins for a long long time now and if and when they get their act together, if I see that Shay is making fuck ups, I swear to god I'll say it. AND I'll want him dropped/replaced.

But I firmly believe its all too up in the air to make that indivdual judgement.

100% in agreement mate, just re-read my original post and maybe it didnt come across how I meant it. I wasnt trying to say he was a bad keeper, but one who does (like all goalkeepers) have certain deficiencies which are being cruelly exposed for one reason or another in recent weeks. People seemed to hold him up as some sort of god prior to xmas, and all this negativity is not because he is a bad keeper, but because people are disappointed that he is not what they thought he was. All I was trying to say is that he has always been this way, and if thats the case I agree that it is the defence who have to adapt to counteract that weakness.

Given will pull defenders out of the shit all day long with his shot stopping, but he does need the support with crosses - but I think I have said before on a similar thread - Joe was/is just as bad with crosses and command of his area, so people should heed the warning we have had with this change of manager and don't think that change for change's sake is good.

Right mate, I do get you now and I agree, although I was - scratch that AM - one fo those who has him down as one of the very best there is. He will make mistakes. Has made mistakes for us. As has every other top keeper. I just think we as city fans can be a bit too dramatic sometimes and call for players to be replaced rather than scratch a mistake off or a bad patch...

Its just that, along with Carlos Tevez, Shay Given is one player in the entire squad that I have 100% confidence in. The rest are hot and cold and its them I want to focus my criticism (constructive mind, not "sell him!!") on...

One way or the other, the back need to click and grow a solid understanding QUICK. Then we'll know for sure if indeed there is a player that definitely needs replacing.