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I know we're analysing individual performances now, but I thought it would be worth highlighting the centre of midfield as a whole- as I see it anyway, we looked relatively solid defensively (especially considering recent injuries) and our forwards are scoring goals and generally playing quite well.

The problem area is midfield. As the heart of the side, it needs to dictate, to be influential, to both protect the defence and complement the attack. It just isn't doing that at the moment and we're all wondering why. I thought it would be a good idea to look at how we've lined up in midfield, and match the line up against the result to see which duo/trio has been, statistically anyway, most effective this season so far. Maybe others could build on it with better, more detailed analysis.

So, I'll break it into-

Barry and Ireland Beat Blackburn 2-0, beat Wolves 1-0, beat Palace 2-0, beat Portsmouth 1-0, drew 3-3 with Burnley, beat Arsenal 3-0, beat Sunderland 4-3,

Barry and de Jong Beat West Ham 3-1, drew 1-1 with Aston Villa, drew 1-1 with Wigan, drew 2-2 with Fulham, drew 0-0 with Birmingham, beat Chelsea 2-1, beat Blackburn 4-1, lost 2-0 to Everton, beat Rags 2-1, lost 3-1 to Rags,


Barry, Ireland and de Jong Beat Arsenal 4-2, lost 4-3 to Rags, beat Fulham 2-1, beat Scunthorpe 5-1, drew 2-2 with Liverpool, lost 3-0 to Spurs, beat Stoke 2-0, beat Wolves 3-0, beat Portsmouth 2-0, lost 2-1 to Hull.

There were one or two different ones, like Ireland and de Jong at home to Hull, Barry and Kompany against Bolton, Kompany and de Jong at Middlesbrough, or Ibrahim with de Jong and Ireland at Scunthorpe- but the above is the most frequent/first choice three in their different formats.

So in a nutshell-

-Barry and Ireland have played seven, winning six and drawing one. Scored 16 and conceded only six (including five clean sheets).

-Barry and de Jong have played ten, winning four, drawing four and losing two. Scored 16 and conceded 12. Not the best statistically, but bear in mind they had arguably the tougher games, and managed to beat Chelsea and the Rags as a pairing.

-Barry, Ireland and de Jong have played ten, winning six, drawing once and losing three. Scored 24 and conceded 15. That suggests we're more open when the three play together, strangely enough, as we've scored and conceded much more when they're all playing.

It presents an interesting story- many would argue that de Jong has been our best midfielder so far this season, and his performances against Chelsea and the Rags will have helped there- but statistically, our most effective midfield has been Barry and Ireland in a 4-4-2. We've not lost with that system- six wins and one draw from seven, with five clean sheets to boot. A trio of Barry, Ireland and de Jong is second best with six wins and a draw from ten games. Barry and de Jong, despite masterminding the Chelsea and Rags wins, have the poorest record of the three systems- only four wins from ten.

I know it's not conclusive and could be done in much greater detail but I wanted to try and figure out what our best midfield has been this season, statistically- I'm surprised that it's Barry and Ireland.

So how do you see it- does it prove that we're better off without de Jong in the team- is he best utilised only in big games when we're under intense pressure, and less effective when the onus is on us to attack? Or is he a key player and these statistics prove nothing?

I've been saying for ages we were going great at start of the season without the need for nigels protection and actually conceded more once he got in the side. He's won me over a lot since them but I still don't think he's needed every game and actually holds us back in some.

Robinho played those 1st four with all wins and no conceding as well and he's largely considered our laziest and least defensive player. Guess attack is the best form of defence against the weaker sides.

I think that a four man midfield with 2 in the cente and 2 out wide is the best way to go.

I would like to see a pairing of NDJ and Ireland. Think their differing styles would complement each other.

Got nothing against Barry, and think he has taken a bit of unfair criticism recently and think he does the unfashionable and boring stuff superbly - just think its time for him to have a rest.

If we play a two man midfield we can rotate Barry, NDJ & Vieira has the holding player and Ireland & Tevez (and maybe even SWP, Petrov or Johnson) as the main pivot behind the front two.

That would even allow us to play our two big front men if both fit against lesser teams and drop in the extra holding midfielder against the top teams.

Haven't checked the games exactly, but a lot of the Barry & Ireland games will have been pre-Villa, when Barry looked like an England player. Don't want to turn this into a Barry thread, but he looked fantastic early on and our midfield has been much poorer as his form has dropped. People have been critical of him, I know I have, but maybe he is the real quality in midfield that we've been missing for a few months.

As for de Jong, I had really big hopes for him last season and the Chelsea game was probably the best example of what I thought he could do. However, too many 6 out of 10 games. He needs to be 8 out of 10 every game with the occasional 9 or 10 (or 6, everyone has a bad game), otherwise his place could be under threat for next season.

Interesting analysis. Imho the Barry-De Jong partnership has the poorest record because it lacks creativity when going forward. Neither of them can pick a killer pass like Ireland can (like he did against Portsmouth, for instance). So what do they do? they content themselves protecting the back line but this ends either in the opposition putting too much pressure on us, or us lacking the spark to win the game.

The Barry-Ireland partnership can work, if Barry is assigned the holding role and Ireland freed of too much tracking back duties, because assures decent protection to the backline, without completely eliminating the spark from our midfield. However Ireland has never looked too comfortable as a CM in a flat 442.

Then comes the Barry-Ireland.De Jong trio. On paper this should be the better option, because we could free Ireland of any defensive duties, stick him in the hole behind the strikers and let Barry and De Jong worry about covering the defence. On the pitch, it has never been used this way, as it was pointed out, and this is why it hasn't worked as well as it should have.

I for one wouldn't mind trying a central midfield of

[center]De Jong
Vieira-----Barry
Ireland[/center]

however where would SWP, A.Johnson and Bellamy feature in such a formation, if the front line is made of Tevez and Adebayor? And to be honest I can't see another front line being selected, considering the goal scoring record Tevez has, and the fact that with Tevez and Bellamy upfront we lack aerieal strength both when going forward and when defending set pieces.

Pretty Boy Lee wrote:I've been saying for ages we were going great at start of the season without the need for nigels protection and actually conceded more once he got in the side. He's won me over a lot since them but I still don't think he's needed every game and actually holds us back in some.

De Jong was MOTM in the League clashes against Arsenal and Chelsea so his contribution where necessary is essential. A flat 4 man midfield will always need someone to be disciplined enough to hold back and protect the defence - but if Barry can do that job against lesser sides than De Jong and/or Vieira can be rested in these Matches. Although I don't think that will sit well with either of them.

I thought Barry looked excellent at the beginning of the season. Whether that's because DeJong wasn't there or whether it's because he was just playing better I don't know.

Imo though, unless the rest of the team formation requires a defensive midfielder & a playmaker, I don't want to see either role in the team. I want 2 midfielders who run, pass, tackle, cross & shoot, who are decent in the air & have a winning attitude.

If we want to add a DeJong or an Ireland to that for certain games then fair enough but I want us to be aiming for a core of 2 great players not 3-4 ok ones. Great midfielders don't just defend or attack they do both.

Ireland, if he can't be an alrounder, would then be treated as an attacking player & would therefore be expected to create/score at the same level as the others do or not play.

Stats are normally a good way of working things out but like you pointed out yourself you dont play the same team every week so in this case they are pointless.

We dont need a holding midfielder,

we need our midfield 2/3 to work as 1 unit and put pressure on quicker, put pressure on the ball and on free players. you see teams doing it to us the whole time and it can be very effective. the only players that seem to do it for us is tevez and bellemy while barry and de jong back off, or only 1 of them pushes on while the other drops back 20 yards.

the days of a player been giving a single role in a game are gone, barry, ireland and de jong should all be classed as box to box midfielders - attack when we have the ball and get the ball back as quick as you can when we dont. Stevie is excellent at putting pressure on when we dont have it but when barry and de jong dont pick up the spare players around then stevie looks out of position.

so i think our best midfield is playing 3 (Ireland - De Jong - Barry) but together and as 1 unit.

FA cup winners 2006 wrote:We dont need a holding midfielder,

we need our midfield 2/3 to work as 1 unit and put pressure on quicker, put pressure on the ball and on free players. you see teams doing it to us the whole time and it can be very effective. the only players that seem to do it for us is tevez and bellemy while barry and de jong back off, or only 1 of them pushes on while the other drops back 20 yards.

the days of a player been giving a single role in a game are gone, barry, ireland and de jong should all be classed as box to box midfielders - attack when we have the ball and get the ball back as quick as you can when we dont. Stevie is excellent at putting pressure on when we dont have it but when barry and de jong dont pick up the spare players around then stevie looks out of position.

so i think our best midfield is playing 3 (Ireland - De Jong - Barry) but together and as 1 unit.

See I think you may be right here Hughes really liked the holding midfielder and thought that was the answer to our defensive problems last season and Mancini just went with it. Maybe Mancini should really shake things up and try something else?

There's bnothing wrong with playing De Jong and Barry in the midfield as long as Ireland plays in an advanced position. When we are playing 442, with Barry and De Jong (or Vieria) in midfield with Ade and Tevez upfront, it simply does not work because there is too big a gap between midfield and the strikers. We need someone in that space between midfield and attack to link-up the play. IMO that should be Ireland. Drop Ade, and play Superman behind Tevez. Problem solved. If we need to chase games late on, bring on Ade, and drop De Jong (or Vieria).

With this formation, I would tell De Jong (or Vieria) and Barry to get the ball off the defenders and give it to Ireland as quickly as they can.

Mancini may have his preferred system / formation, but he has to use the players he has to get the best out of them, and that means not playing Ireland on the wing. Hughes did that a few times too, and Sven.

Tonight I would play


SWP----Ireland---Viera----Johnson

---------Tevez----Ade

Vhero wrote:

FA cup winners 2006 wrote:We dont need a holding midfielder,

we need our midfield 2/3 to work as 1 unit and put pressure on quicker, put pressure on the ball and on free players. you see teams doing it to us the whole time and it can be very effective. the only players that seem to do it for us is tevez and bellemy while barry and de jong back off, or only 1 of them pushes on while the other drops back 20 yards.

the days of a player been giving a single role in a game are gone, barry, ireland and de jong should all be classed as box to box midfielders - attack when we have the ball and get the ball back as quick as you can when we dont. Stevie is excellent at putting pressure on when we dont have it but when barry and de jong dont pick up the spare players around then stevie looks out of position.

so i think our best midfield is playing 3 (Ireland - De Jong - Barry) but together and as 1 unit.

See I think you may be right here Hughes really liked the holding midfielder and thought that was the answer to our defensive problems last season and Mancini just went with it. Maybe Mancini should really shake things up and try something else?

we have played with 1 and 2 holding midfielders but it still made no difference. if you give opponents time and space to turn and face our goal then it does'nt matter how many we have back there, professional footballers are good enough to find space if giving enough time on the ball. we need to give them no time and make them pass it back or hurry their pass while also cutting off options to other players, this is something Barcelona do to great effect and they dont have any midfielder that just sits in front of the back 4

FA cup winners 2006 wrote:

Vhero wrote:

FA cup winners 2006 wrote:We dont need a holding midfielder,

we need our midfield 2/3 to work as 1 unit and put pressure on quicker, put pressure on the ball and on free players. you see teams doing it to us the whole time and it can be very effective. the only players that seem to do it for us is tevez and bellemy while barry and de jong back off, or only 1 of them pushes on while the other drops back 20 yards.

the days of a player been giving a single role in a game are gone, barry, ireland and de jong should all be classed as box to box midfielders - attack when we have the ball and get the ball back as quick as you can when we dont. Stevie is excellent at putting pressure on when we dont have it but when barry and de jong dont pick up the spare players around then stevie looks out of position.

so i think our best midfield is playing 3 (Ireland - De Jong - Barry) but together and as 1 unit.

See I think you may be right here Hughes really liked the holding midfielder and thought that was the answer to our defensive problems last season and Mancini just went with it. Maybe Mancini should really shake things up and try something else?

we have played with 1 and 2 holding midfielders but it still made no difference. if you give opponents time and space to turn and face our goal then it does'nt matter how many we have back there, professional footballers are good enough to find space if giving enough time on the ball. we need to give them no time and make them pass it back or hurry their pass while also cutting off options to other players, this is something Barcelona do to great effect and they dont have any midfielder that just sits in front of the back 4

Agree, Barca have pretty much the whole team doing that job when they lose the ball wheras we had almost no one doing it properly v Hull & both our so called defensive midfield players were in the picture doing fk all, tracking no one, pressing no one, when the 1st goal was scored from th D of our penalty area. Georgi Kinkladze would have been as effective as the pair of them, he was great at watching.

I think there is another important factor, to add to that of "who plays and where they play".

Our defence and midfield currently play very close together and our full backs also play tighter to the central defenders.
In theory this allows them to work as a stronger, unified defensive unit.
In reality, we freely surrender the midfield and drop back, defending far too deeply and too narrowly. We leave space wide, allowing opposing wingers to cross more freely and we leave space outside our box allowing opponents to simply pick up possession and pressurise us again.
Witness the derby when (a) we scrambled the ball clear only to find it immediately coming straight back at us and (b) the space that Valencia had wide, often unchallenged, to cross into our box. The pressure on us is also increased by Given staying on his line, leaving defenders only to claer the ball.

By defending too deep and surrendering space, our midfield is pushed back too deeply, isolating our forwards and inhibiting our attacking options. Often we are reduced to lumping the ball longer upfield towards our forwards in the hope they gain possession, rather than attacking as a unit. This relies heavily on the individual talents of our forwards, increasing their workload and decreases the accurate service they require. It gives them fewer options for attack and it takes longer for our midfield to join them...if they get the chance.

My answer would be to defend further upfield and not drop back too deeply. We desperately need a World class creative midfielder who can hold up the ball if necessary, act as a link between a deep midfield and isolated frontmen and dictate our attacking options. It is also as important that our midfield work as a unit with our attackers as it does with our defenders.

Doesnt matter what the stats say, irelqnd isnt playing at a PL level right now, barry is the same and de jong is only turning up every other game

all three are inconsistent, 1 is lazy, 1 cant pass and the other atm can ONLY pass and do fuck all else

Ashton,
Is it possible that our midfielders' performances could be reflective of the way they are being instructed to play?
Defending deeply but isolated from our attackers with fewer options going forward.

Ted Hughes wrote:I thought Barry looked excellent at the beginning of the season. Whether that's because DeJong wasn't there or whether it's because he was just playing better I don't know.

Imo though, unless the rest of the team formation requires a defensive midfielder & a playmaker, I don't want to see either role in the team. I want 2 midfielders who run, pass, tackle, cross & shoot, who are decent in the air & have a winning attitude.

If we want to add a DeJong or an Ireland to that for certain games then fair enough but I want us to be aiming for a core of 2 great players not 3-4 ok ones. Great midfielders don't just defend or attack they do both.

Ireland, if he can't be an alrounder, would then be treated as an attacking player & would therefore be expected to create/score at the same level as the others do or not play.

Amen

Dunno why but I have a gut feeling that Ireland, Vieira, Johnson and SWP would complement each other very well. Probably not enough protection against the top 6 teams but I'd use this against teams lower down the table, and play De jong, Barry, Ireland, SWP and Johnson in a 5 man midfield against the teams that dominate possession.

MaineRoadMemories wrote:Dunno why but I have a gut feeling that Ireland, Vieira, Johnson and SWP would complement each other very well. Probably not enough protection against the top 6 teams but I'd use this against teams lower down the table, and play De jong, Barry, Ireland, SWP and Johnson in a 5 man midfield against the teams that dominate possession.

I think we need to try that or at least a similar attacking formation against the lesser teams, if we're struggling then fair enough change it for something more solid but at least try it. Mancini needs to be honest enough to swap Vieira if he's not up to it though rather than automatically being more negative just to protect him if he struggles.