Our Midfield- a quick analysis

[brite blu sky]

very interesting analysis CtK - nice one.
while the figures show something it is still difficult to pin down any solid conclusions because in any given game performances by another player eg. Carlito might have made a big difference. For instance the centre back pairing of Kolo and Vincent has been suggested as the main reason behind the clean sheets.
I tend to have the view that at present we have a squad of really top players.. so i feel that it is more the set up that the players are asked to play in and also the amount of protection they are asked to give the defence.
In other words i get he feeling that since we have been playing all season with iether a new to each other or makeshift defence that we have been set up to try help protect it. so..
1. the psychology is not 100% confident.
2. that inhibits the midfield slightly and may add to us playing too deep
3. the set up and roles chosen by the manager reflect the lack of total confidence in the defence.

Conclusion.. it wont be until we get the defence sorted as a reliable effective unit that we can start to see the formation we would all like to see ( no holding mid ) in midfield.. and more importantly we can play higher up the field.

I have said it before, but i think that the Everton game really hit our confidence because we were so comprehensively stopped. I feel that Mancini's reaction to that was to close ranks and set us up to keep it tight.. get the defensive resilience right first then look to build on it. So far since Everton it still hasn't gone well.. mainly as the team is then shackled and isnt set up right to play what some would recognise as our natural game.. too big a gap between the mids and the forwards.

i think Bobby has to try and come out of his shell and set the team up to attack the space and sit higher up the pitch.
i think Bingo's selection is spot on.. with Ireland froward centre mid and Vieira mopping up and spreading play around.

However i am concerned that Mancini is going to stick to a solid first policy and want to see a couple of clean sheets before he allows any expansion in the set up. Personally i think that is understandable, as he is new to the Prem and the players, however i think it would be wrong as it doesnt utilise these players to their best advantage.

Cmon Bobby, put your worries aside and let the team play more spaced out and higher up the pitch and get back to looking seriously dangerous.

SWP----Ireland---Viera----Johnson

[Ted Hughes]

I've seen the formation referred to with the big gap between forwards & midfield used quite a bit in the Italian league so I think it may well be intentional rather than teething problems.

I mentioned it on here a few weeks ago, that I call it a 7-3 formation bacause effectively the 3 forwards roam about & the defence sets up narrow with 3 midfield in front. They sometimes let teams have the ball out wide & just block it when it comes in. My worry is that; unless there's a change of heart, we could see DeJong, Vieira & Barry sitting there for most of games. Hopefully he'll decide to attack instead.

[brite blu sky]

I've seen the formation referred to with the big gap between forwards & midfield used quite a bit in the Italian league so I think it may well be intentional rather than teething problems.

Yep.. that would be City fans biggest fear i guess.. and quite rightly.

However in mitigation for Bobby, i very much doubt that he imagined that he could operate in the Prem in the same way as in Serie A. Assuming he is reasonably astute, he will know he has got stuff to learn.. so lets hope the intentional bit is a reaction to leaking goals under Hughes. Which to be fair was needed.

Long term i cant see him getting very far in the Prem with the defensive attitude.. ( did anyone win the Prem in recent times with such a defensive minded team ? )
Also he would lose the fans.

I cant quite explain it properly, but i do get the sense that Bobby is adopting this conservative approach as a stop gap to shore up a weak defence AND perhaps while we learn to cope better with the switch when we lose the ball. Very obvious i know, if we are not all piling up the pitch then it is easier to get back in a formation.

Trouble is that doesnt work in my view in the Prem.. it just encourages any old team like Hull to press up and take advantage of the space.
Mancini has to try and let this set of players play.

SWP - Viera- Ireland - AJ with Ireland at the front should give any team a lot of trouble. He has to trust that Patrick and the defence can deal with anything that gets through. Lets see if he goes for something like this tonight and see what they can do to Notlob.

[Blue Since 76]

I think there is another important factor, to add to that of "who plays and where they play".

Our defence and midfield currently play very close together and our full backs also play tighter to the central defenders.
In theory this allows them to work as a stronger, unified defensive unit.
In reality, we freely surrender the midfield and drop back, defending far too deeply and too narrowly. We leave space wide, allowing opposing wingers to cross more freely and we leave space outside our box allowing opponents to simply pick up possession and pressurise us again.
Witness the derby when (a) we scrambled the ball clear only to find it immediately coming straight back at us and (b) the space that Valencia had wide, often unchallenged, to cross into our box. The pressure on us is also increased by Given staying on his line, leaving defenders only to claer the ball.

By defending too deep and surrendering space, our midfield is pushed back too deeply, isolating our forwards and inhibiting our attacking options. Often we are reduced to lumping the ball longer upfield towards our forwards in the hope they gain possession, rather than attacking as a unit. This relies heavily on the individual talents of our forwards, increasing their workload and decreases the accurate service they require. It gives them fewer options for attack and it takes longer for our midfield to join them...if they get the chance.

My answer would be to defend further upfield and not drop back too deeply. We desperately need a World class creative midfielder who can hold up the ball if necessary, act as a link between a deep midfield and isolated frontmen and dictate our attacking options. It is also as important that our midfield work as a unit with our attackers as it does with our defenders.

Before Mancini came, we were very poor defensively and a lot of players were (and still are) coming in for criticism. If Mancini doesn't rate our defenders, but can't replace them until summer, he has to come up with a system that enables us to defend, hence the packed penalty area and deep midfield. At the moment, I think the system puts the ball into our weak area (defence) too much and keeps it away from where we are strong. If he gets the chance to buy in summer and still plays the same system next season, I'd be disappointed, even if it becomes winning football, as I go to be entertained as well. In fact, I go to be entertained more than to see winning football, as if it was the latter, I'd have given up by now.

[Douglas Higginbottom]

I think there is another important factor, to add to that of "who plays and where they play".

Our defence and midfield currently play very close together and our full backs also play tighter to the central defenders.
In theory this allows them to work as a stronger, unified defensive unit.
In reality, we freely surrender the midfield and drop back, defending far too deeply and too narrowly. We leave space wide, allowing opposing wingers to cross more freely and we leave space outside our box allowing opponents to simply pick up possession and pressurise us again.
Witness the derby when (a) we scrambled the ball clear only to find it immediately coming straight back at us and (b) the space that Valencia had wide, often unchallenged, to cross into our box. The pressure on us is also increased by Given staying on his line, leaving defenders only to claer the ball.

By defending too deep and surrendering space, our midfield is pushed back too deeply, isolating our forwards and inhibiting our attacking options. Often we are reduced to lumping the ball longer upfield towards our forwards in the hope they gain possession, rather than attacking as a unit. This relies heavily on the individual talents of our forwards, increasing their workload and decreases the accurate service they require. It gives them fewer options for attack and it takes longer for our midfield to join them...if they get the chance.

My answer would be to defend further upfield and not drop back too deeply. We desperately need a World class creative midfielder who can hold up the ball if necessary, act as a link between a deep midfield and isolated frontmen and dictate our attacking options. It is also as important that our midfield work as a unit with our attackers as it does with our defenders.

That's about spot on as I see it John. I know from conversations pre Mancini that one of the key concerns was defending too deeply. Nigel sits in front of the back 4 and if they are deep then so is he. If there is another so called defensive midfielder he will likely do the same and then we have that gap that isn't being covered well if at all. I do worry that we are playing 2 in that role all the time and sometimes more which leaves a big onus on the 3 or 4 up top to do the business.
If they arent great on the day or the opposition keep plenty back and smother them we have problems.

[Ted Hughes]

I've seen the formation referred to with the big gap between forwards & midfield used quite a bit in the Italian league so I think it may well be intentional rather than teething problems.

Yep.. that would be City fans biggest fear i guess.. and quite rightly.

However in mitigation for Bobby, i very much doubt that he imagined that he could operate in the Prem in the same way as in Serie A. Assuming he is reasonably astute, he will know he has got stuff to learn.. so lets hope the intentional bit is a reaction to leaking goals under Hughes. Which to be fair was needed.

Long term i cant see him getting very far in the Prem with the defensive attitude.. ( did anyone win the Prem in recent times with such a defensive minded team ? )
Also he would lose the fans.

I cant quite explain it properly, but i do get the sense that Bobby is adopting this conservative approach as a stop gap to shore up a weak defence AND perhaps while we learn to cope better with the switch when we lose the ball. Very obvious i know, if we are not all piling up the pitch then it is easier to get back in a formation.

Trouble is that doesnt work in my view in the Prem.. it just encourages any old team like Hull to press up and take advantage of the space.
Mancini has to try and let this set of players play.

SWP - Viera- Ireland - AJ with Ireland at the front should give any team a lot of trouble. He has to trust that Patrick and the defence can deal with anything that gets through. Lets see if he goes for something like this tonight and see what they can do to Notlob.

I don't think he has the time to do any more experimenting with tactical systems though, we have to grab the opportunity now & he needs to start impressing people or City could miss Europe altogether & Cook will sign up Mourinho or similar well before the end of the season, so even if he finishes 3rd & wins the cup he'll still get fired.

[Beefymcfc]

Quick analysis - not playing to our strengths.

[brite blu sky]

Just had a look at this thread from February in light of the question as to if there has been progress under Mancini. It is clear the concerns were about defending too deep. That has changed completely, so by that evidence is it possible to say that there has been quiet some progress and secondly if there has been progress to the level we are now, that there is reason to believe that will continue.. ie. sorting the attacking out.

?

[Dameerto]

One major change to midfield would be playing Milner centrally - either in a central three with de Jong and maybe Barry, or in a duo with either Barry or Yaya (providing he looks like he wants to play that week) - Silva could be incorporated with the midfield duo as a deep second striker, or could be rested/rotated when using the midfield trio. Silva is the priority though.

Edited to say - by midfield I was talking about CENTRAL midfield (so not including wingers when talking about a midfield duo)

[brite blu sky]

Just had a look at this thread from February in light of the question as to if there has been progress under Mancini. It is clear the concerns were about defending too deep. That has changed completely, so by that evidence is it possible to say that there has been quiet some progress and secondly if there has been progress to the level we are now, that there is reason to believe that will continue.. ie. sorting the attacking out.

?

[Bridge'srightfoot]

We need more goals from midfield.
Look how many goals United get from Flecher, Nani even Giggs and Scholes chip in with a few.
With Chelsea Lampard and Malouda and even Essien chip in with thier fair amount.
Look at how many goals Gerrard gets for Liverpool and Cahill for Everton.

The problem is we have Barry who'll score once every ten games or so, Toure who'll do something similar, Dejong, enough said. Milner doesn't score particularly often, Silva doesn't get too many and nor does Johnson.

We need someone to take the weight off Tevez.

[kinkylola]

We need more goals from midfield.
Look how many goals United get from Flecher, Nani even Giggs and Scholes chip in witha few.
With Chelsea Lampard and Malouda and even Essien chip in with thier fair amount.
Look at how many goals Gerrard gets for Liverpool and Cahill for Everton.

The problem is we have Barry who'll score once evry ten games or so, Toure who'll do something similar, Dejong, enough said. Milner doesn't score particularly often, Silva doesn't get too many and nor does Johnson.

We need someone to take the weight off Tevez.

I agree with this ... it will be nice if balotelli/jo/ade can contribute more goals, but even they would be doing it from advanced positions ... I think having a goal threat coming from deep creates a whole new set of problems for def and if we truly had a goal threat sitting in midfield I think we would be a much more complete team. Even though I hate lampard as a person, the goals he has provided over the years from midfield have won chelsea the title