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Its been a strange six months in the life of a Man City fan and the intrest in City from friends and punters in the pub (in Ireland) has been one of mixed views, similar to what is happening on this and other City forums. Some believe we are crass and wish to 'buy' the premiership, others believe we already have and should 'on paper' be there or there about at the end of the season, some believe it is good for the premiership that City have stirred things up and put a cash injection into teams that maybe able to compete against the established FOUR, others believe we havent got it in us and will never succeed and some think its only a matter of time. No matter what the prognosis, all this speculation and expectation is built primarily around the fact of spending £200 million...or so.

This is the problem; its not the players or the manager its the spending of the 200 million...that is deemed by many to be an automatic precursor to winning the title and unfortunately that mentality prevails amongst City fans in varying degrees of intensity. A lot of people seem to want a 'pot noodle' season, just add water and there it is, a steaming pile of shit...i want it and i want it now. There is little appreciation given to the complexities of running a highly successful club, the training, the psychology, team spirit, managing a large talented squad and the associated player rotation, understanding completely the players you are playing with, understanding every individual on how to get the best out of them, achieving a winning mentality etc etc etc. Money can only assist success but cannot solve these issues; they have to be worked on over time. MH has flaws, he is inexperienced in aspects of management that will be required for European competition such as squad rotation, he has never experienced (as a manager) a cup final or having to endure sustained pressure leading into the end of a season where we may be competing to be in the top four (we all remember Keegan bottling it 12 points up)...the point I am trying to make, is that you have to believe he CAN do it, there is a first time for everything and I would like to think that there will be a lot of firsts for this City team but we have to expect that mistakes will be made. Some fans want gurantees, they want Mourinho to guarantee us silverware (he like all successful managers had to be baptised in fire and win his first title), they want more money spent on players to guarantee success, the list goes on and the simple fact is there are no guarantees. I believe there is a great deal of fear among our younger fans and that they are under the impression that we should be beating everyone and winning silverware because thats what happens when you are rich, its going to be an emotionally bumpy ride if thats the case. There is also the 'typical city' tag to be got rid of and us older fans are in some way linked into that frame of mind...oh its going to go tits up, after all it is City...its all fear, but now with the money we are frightened of ridicule as well as disappointment and I believe that has something to do with a lot of the bickering that goes on here.

The fact is we will ALL have to earn our right of passage into the higher eschelons of the premier league; the club, the manager, the players and the fans. I for one am looking towards the brightest future I have known since 1976, occassionally I have to pinch myself and to be honest dumb down my expectations and demands for this season as I have found myself expecting to beat teams like Fulham, Wigan and even Villa and then I get a reality check and realise this is a new team with a new manager and staff and new owner and it will take time and whether we like it or not, we will have to earn the right to play in the champions league and we have to put out one of four teams that have earned the right religiously over the course of the last ten seasons....they are not going to relinquish it without a fight and I am looking forward to seeing what we are made of but will not be devastated or calling for the managers head if we dont make it this year. Top six and a cup final will do nicely....see what I mean!

I like this:o)

very good post, mate!

Common sense prevails.

What time's kick off on Saturday?

trout man wrote:There is little appreciation given to the complexities of running a highly successful club, the training, the psychology, team spirit, managing a large talented squad and the associated player rotation, understanding completely the players you are playing with, understanding every individual on how to get the best out of them, achieving a winning mentality etc etc etc. Money can only assist success but cannot solve these issues; they have to be worked on over time. MH has flaws, he is inexperienced in aspects of management that will be required for European competition such as squad rotation, he has never experienced (as a manager) a cup final or having to endure sustained pressure leading into the end of a season where we may be competing to be in the top four (we all remember Keegan bottling it 12 points up)...the point I am trying to make, is that you have to believe he CAN do it, there is a first time for everything and I would like to think that there will be a lot of firsts for this City team but we have to expect that mistakes will be made. Some fans want gurantees, they want Mourinho to guarantee us silverware (he like all successful managers had to be baptised in fire and win his first title), they want more money spent on players to guarantee success, the list goes on and the simple fact is there are no guarantees.
...
realise this is a new team with a new manager and staff and new owner and it will take time and whether we like it or not, we will have to earn the right to play in the champions league and we have to put out one of four teams that have earned the right religiously over the course of the last ten seasons....they are not going to relinquish it without a fight and I am looking forward to seeing what we are made of but will not be devastated or calling for the managers head if we dont make it this year. Top six and a cup final will do nicely....see what I mean!

Some good points. All managers have to go through a right of passage. Some succeed, most dont. Hughes may well take us to the promised land. He will be the messiah. But I dont think he will be here in 18 months time.

The difference is that we are by many estimations the richest club in the world. We dont need to take a chance on him. We can afford to bring in the very best. Someone who is proven, who will have an immediate impact and will make that impact last. Someone who the very top players will want to play for. No top player at present says "I want to work with Mark Hughes, he is a great coach". I find it difficult to believe any ever will. Therefore Hughes needs to passage somewhere else, in all fairness.

Perhaps this should be printed in the matchday program, or circulated to all City forums! Post of the month award!

Scorchio wrote:

trout man wrote:There is little appreciation given to the complexities of running a highly successful club, the training, the psychology, team spirit, managing a large talented squad and the associated player rotation, understanding completely the players you are playing with, understanding every individual on how to get the best out of them, achieving a winning mentality etc etc etc. Money can only assist success but cannot solve these issues; they have to be worked on over time. MH has flaws, he is inexperienced in aspects of management that will be required for European competition such as squad rotation, he has never experienced (as a manager) a cup final or having to endure sustained pressure leading into the end of a season where we may be competing to be in the top four (we all remember Keegan bottling it 12 points up)...the point I am trying to make, is that you have to believe he CAN do it, there is a first time for everything and I would like to think that there will be a lot of firsts for this City team but we have to expect that mistakes will be made. Some fans want gurantees, they want Mourinho to guarantee us silverware (he like all successful managers had to be baptised in fire and win his first title), they want more money spent on players to guarantee success, the list goes on and the simple fact is there are no guarantees.
...
realise this is a new team with a new manager and staff and new owner and it will take time and whether we like it or not, we will have to earn the right to play in the champions league and we have to put out one of four teams that have earned the right religiously over the course of the last ten seasons....they are not going to relinquish it without a fight and I am looking forward to seeing what we are made of but will not be devastated or calling for the managers head if we dont make it this year. Top six and a cup final will do nicely....see what I mean!

Some good points. All managers have to go through a right of passage. Some succeed, most dont. Hughes may well take us to the promised land. He will be the messiah. But I dont think he will be here in 18 months time.

The difference is that we are by many estimations the richest club in the world. We dont need to take a chance on him. We can afford to bring in the very best. Someone who is proven, who will have an immediate impact and will make that impact last. Someone who the very top players will want to play for. No top player at present says "I want to work with Mark Hughes, he is a great coach". I find it difficult to believe any ever will. Therefore Hughes needs to passage somewhere else, in all fairness.

Contradictory don't you think? Hughes will be the messiah? If that's the case then it can only mean he'll have won something! Of course Hughes isn't the finished article as a manager but they all start somewhere! When Mourinho won the UEFA with Porto cup do you think the top players said 'I want to play for Mourinho'? they didn't.

Best post I have read on here for a while makes sense to me.

Scorchio wrote:
Some good points. All managers have to go through a right of passage. Some succeed, most dont. Hughes may well take us to the promised land. He will be the messiah. But I dont think he will be here in 18 months time.

The difference is that we are by many estimations the richest club in the world. We dont need to take a chance on him. We can afford to bring in the very best. Someone who is proven, who will have an immediate impact and will make that impact last. Someone who the very top players will want to play for. No top player at present says "I want to work with Mark Hughes, he is a great coach". I find it difficult to believe any ever will. Therefore Hughes needs to passage somewhere else, in all fairness.

Entirely true on many counts except the conclusion. As you say, sticking with Hughes might be a successful decision but while agree entirely that it wasn't the percentage call at the start of the current project, or, for that matter, at the turn of the year the situation has changed now. If we had no immediate time constraints on the project then he wouldn't be the percentage call now either! But with the threat to the project from the Platini fronted cartel we have a time constraint so serious that we cannot afford to be starting again now! Trying to impose a different manager on this set of players would almost certainly be a disaster. In the context of the UEFA situation, we MUST stick with this version of the project and see it through. It is our best chance of beating the cartel to the punch and, therefore, becomes the percentage call now for us to capitalise on the window of opportunity that we have.

Socrates wrote:

Scorchio wrote:
Some good points. All managers have to go through a right of passage. Some succeed, most dont. Hughes may well take us to the promised land. He will be the messiah. But I dont think he will be here in 18 months time.

The difference is that we are by many estimations the richest club in the world. We dont need to take a chance on him. We can afford to bring in the very best. Someone who is proven, who will have an immediate impact and will make that impact last. Someone who the very top players will want to play for. No top player at present says "I want to work with Mark Hughes, he is a great coach". I find it difficult to believe any ever will. Therefore Hughes needs to passage somewhere else, in all fairness.

Entirely true on many counts except the conclusion. As you say, sticking with Hughes might be a successful decision but while agree entirely that it wasn't the percentage call at the start of the current project, or, for that matter, at the turn of the year the situation has changed now. If we had no immediate time constraints on the project then he wouldn't be the percentage call now either! But with the threat to the project from the Platini fronted cartel we have a time constraint so serious that we cannot afford to be starting again now! Trying to impose a different manager on this set of players would almost certainly be a disaster. In the context of the UEFA situation, we MUST stick with this version of the project and see it through. It is our best chance of beating the cartel to the punch and, therefore, becomes the percentage call now for us to capitalise on the window of opportunity that we have.

Thats another side of the argument and a very pertinent one.

A lot of people seem to want a 'pot noodle' season, just add water and there it is...Great analogy.

You can also buy a brand new Bentley and it may not run right from time to time!!!

Scorchio wrote:

trout man wrote:There is little appreciation given to the complexities of running a highly successful club, the training, the psychology, team spirit, managing a large talented squad and the associated player rotation, understanding completely the players you are playing with, understanding every individual on how to get the best out of them, achieving a winning mentality etc etc etc. Money can only assist success but cannot solve these issues; they have to be worked on over time. MH has flaws, he is inexperienced in aspects of management that will be required for European competition such as squad rotation, he has never experienced (as a manager) a cup final or having to endure sustained pressure leading into the end of a season where we may be competing to be in the top four (we all remember Keegan bottling it 12 points up)...the point I am trying to make, is that you have to believe he CAN do it, there is a first time for everything and I would like to think that there will be a lot of firsts for this City team but we have to expect that mistakes will be made. Some fans want gurantees, they want Mourinho to guarantee us silverware (he like all successful managers had to be baptised in fire and win his first title), they want more money spent on players to guarantee success, the list goes on and the simple fact is there are no guarantees.
...
realise this is a new team with a new manager and staff and new owner and it will take time and whether we like it or not, we will have to earn the right to play in the champions league and we have to put out one of four teams that have earned the right religiously over the course of the last ten seasons....they are not going to relinquish it without a fight and I am looking forward to seeing what we are made of but will not be devastated or calling for the managers head if we dont make it this year. Top six and a cup final will do nicely....see what I mean!

Some good points. All managers have to go through a right of passage. Some succeed, most dont. Hughes may well take us to the promised land. He will be the messiah. But I dont think he will be here in 18 months time.

The difference is that we are by many estimations the richest club in the world. We dont need to take a chance on him. We can afford to bring in the very best. Someone who is proven, who will have an immediate impact and will make that impact last. Someone who the very top players will want to play for. No top player at present says "I want to work with Mark Hughes, he is a great coach". I find it difficult to believe any ever will. Therefore Hughes needs to passage somewhere else, in all fairness.

That line may come back to haunt you, though I wont be the one bringing it up it five years time. Never forget the scum fans were baying for baconface to be fired...wish the hell he had been!

Great article Troutman. Although I am in the camp that wants success as soon as possible. I have a bad dream that the Glaziers are running around a desert somewhere trying to off load their debt onto a super rich Sheik. We need to have caught up with the scum before they get one.

Scorchio wrote:
The difference is that we are by many estimations the richest club in the world.

Only on paper, by looking at the potential amount of money that our owner might potentially invest in us.

It only makes us the richest club, in reality, if we're actually spending that kind of money. Our trend in spending has been to look towards value and towards building a club and a team.

The plan was never for instant success (as troutman so vividly described), the plan was to build us up. Early success is only part of the plan, it's a means to an end, not an end in itself. We're not like Chelsea where every resource was directed towards creating a team that would win everything right-away and there was zero tolerance towards delay. Mourinho was a manager who won the league his first year (but only improved on being 2nd to an unbeaten Arsenal under Ranieri), however, he didn't stay all that long.

Fans need to understand that under the current ownership we don't have the same goals. We have targets that are every bit as ambitious (probably more so) but that also is a patient one. Hughes was absolutely not hired because he'll win us the league the fastest, Mansour wants him because he can make this club great, he's here to re-build the club from the ground up.

Success is a huge part of that, but sometimes the two things conflict temporarily.

Socrates wrote:

Scorchio wrote:
Some good points. All managers have to go through a right of passage. Some succeed, most dont. Hughes may well take us to the promised land. He will be the messiah. But I dont think he will be here in 18 months time.

The difference is that we are by many estimations the richest club in the world. We dont need to take a chance on him. We can afford to bring in the very best. Someone who is proven, who will have an immediate impact and will make that impact last. Someone who the very top players will want to play for. No top player at present says "I want to work with Mark Hughes, he is a great coach". I find it difficult to believe any ever will. Therefore Hughes needs to passage somewhere else, in all fairness.

Entirely true on many counts except the conclusion. As you say, sticking with Hughes might be a successful decision but while agree entirely that it wasn't the percentage call at the start of the current project, or, for that matter, at the turn of the year the situation has changed now. If we had no immediate time constraints on the project then he wouldn't be the percentage call now either! But with the threat to the project from the Platini fronted cartel we have a time constraint so serious that we cannot afford to be starting again now! Trying to impose a different manager on this set of players would almost certainly be a disaster. In the context of the UEFA situation, we MUST stick with this version of the project and see it through. It is our best chance of beating the cartel to the punch and, therefore, becomes the percentage call now for us to capitalise on the window of opportunity that we have.

Hiddink? Ancellotti?

I'm still not convinced by Hughes, but i think he has got the rest of the season and, as I've said before, I look forward to having a senior citizen ticket in the Sparky Stand after his run of 20 consecutive league titles and people saying 'told you so'. However, it's not impossible that there is a better manager out there who could do something with the current squad, but I agree, we can't afford 5 managers in 2.5 years like Chelsea have had.

Socrates wrote:

Scorchio wrote:
Some good points. All managers have to go through a right of passage. Some succeed, most dont. Hughes may well take us to the promised land. He will be the messiah. But I dont think he will be here in 18 months time.

The difference is that we are by many estimations the richest club in the world. We dont need to take a chance on him. We can afford to bring in the very best. Someone who is proven, who will have an immediate impact and will make that impact last. Someone who the very top players will want to play for. No top player at present says "I want to work with Mark Hughes, he is a great coach". I find it difficult to believe any ever will. Therefore Hughes needs to passage somewhere else, in all fairness.

Entirely true on many counts except the conclusion. As you say, sticking with Hughes might be a successful decision but while agree entirely that it wasn't the percentage call at the start of the current project, or, for that matter, at the turn of the year the situation has changed now. If we had no immediate time constraints on the project then he wouldn't be the percentage call now either! But with the threat to the project from the Platini fronted cartel we have a time constraint so serious that we cannot afford to be starting again now! Trying to impose a different manager on this set of players would almost certainly be a disaster. In the context of the UEFA situation, we MUST stick with this version of the project and see it through. It is our best chance of beating the cartel to the punch and, therefore, becomes the percentage call now for us to capitalise on the window of opportunity that we have.

hmm you picked your quote very well Jon, I happen to think the OP was fantastic and many on here should take note of what was written.

Wonderwall wrote:

Socrates wrote:

Scorchio wrote:
Some good points. All managers have to go through a right of passage. Some succeed, most dont. Hughes may well take us to the promised land. He will be the messiah. But I dont think he will be here in 18 months time.

The difference is that we are by many estimations the richest club in the world. We dont need to take a chance on him. We can afford to bring in the very best. Someone who is proven, who will have an immediate impact and will make that impact last. Someone who the very top players will want to play for. No top player at present says "I want to work with Mark Hughes, he is a great coach". I find it difficult to believe any ever will. Therefore Hughes needs to passage somewhere else, in all fairness.

Entirely true on many counts except the conclusion. As you say, sticking with Hughes might be a successful decision but while agree entirely that it wasn't the percentage call at the start of the current project, or, for that matter, at the turn of the year the situation has changed now. If we had no immediate time constraints on the project then he wouldn't be the percentage call now either! But with the threat to the project from the Platini fronted cartel we have a time constraint so serious that we cannot afford to be starting again now! Trying to impose a different manager on this set of players would almost certainly be a disaster. In the context of the UEFA situation, we MUST stick with this version of the project and see it through. It is our best chance of beating the cartel to the punch and, therefore, becomes the percentage call now for us to capitalise on the window of opportunity that we have.

hmm you picked your quote very well Jon, I happen to think the OP was fantastic and many on here should take note of what was written.

I picked the the post I wanted to partially disagree with Bob, my point is a very clear one - progress needs to be fast and isn't currently fast enough but would almost certainly be even slower if we changed managers! All the pontificating in the world about how much better we are than our shocking underachievements of last season doesn't change the obvious reality that we aren't YET playing well enough to have a hope in hell of getting the top 4 finish that would thwart Platini's plans.

I would love to be sitting here saying it doesn't matter if Hughes doesn't get us to the top 4 this year as we have plenty of time and can build slowly but sadly we probably don't have. The policy of spending three years money in one go last summer showed that our owners, and management, have, thankfully, recognised the threat and understand the urgency! That's why my heart sinks when I see a lack of courage in recent team selections and formations (something shared I hasten to add by genuinely pro-Hughes people like Douglas H) - we need points on the board and we need to take risks to get them. If Hughes had taken more chances in the last 4 games and we had won 2 and lost 2 instead of drawing 4 then we would have 2 extra points on the board and I for one would have far fewer concerns.

People clinging to a count of defeats rather than a count of points simply haven't adjusted to our new reality yet as serious contenders. But we need a strong start to have a hope of being that. The idea that we can spend our way from top 6 to top 4 in January is completely fanciful. We need to be clear 4th at worst by then if we are to last home over the closing months. I don't expect miracles like winning the League or anything silly, I just need to see sustained (and sustainable) progress. Not on last season, as that is irrelevant, but over this season as it develops. At present, we are seeing a regression from our early form and that gravely concerns me. Like I say above, I wish I could just be content at our position but we cannot afford to fail this season as we cannot bank on the cartel not getting their way if we do not!

So I reiterate my point - one directed at those who want Hughes replaced - something I believe would now be a serious mistake. Perhaps you will agree that it is a point they are more likely to take from me than from those that follow Hughes with a blind religious fervour?

What a really thoughtful thread.....

I think that the OP makes some excellent points on fans mentality and yes we do see some of that pot noodle attitude on here.

I am also very much in agreement with most of Soc's posts. Although I would not come from quite the same starting point he does which sounds a bit ".... we have made our bed so we have to....." - I absolutely agree that there is a clock ticking and we need to be ahead of what will be a concerted attempt by the Platini led cartel (backed by the likes of the scum) - and change for gratuitous reasons would likely take us several steps back

For me that clock is very very important - and we really only get one shot - I would consider CL this year to mean that we have made it and we will be home and dry - if not it is next year or bust - if we make it we will stay there and replace someone (unless they change the rules) - just look at how Chelsea are now considered to be part of the elite when they were not really anything historically and we have much as a club that they do not in terms of fan base - quality of stadium - potential development of facilities etc

That is why for me people need to be careful of just wishing change - as an example I am totally against Jose who I see as a self-serving 'flash in the pan' merchant - we would have a couple of flash years - he would be in the press every day and then poof - nothing - this is A PROJECT and all aspects of the club need to be developed - especially strategically like the player development systems

And people mention Ancelotti and Hiddink - well yes I am a fan of both - especially the way they handle themselves - totally not like Jose - I would suggest that Hughes also handles himself very well and puts club before ego.

But much as I like them - people are very rose tinted if they think that is the norm

Hiddink was outstanding - great respect - but it was only half a season
Ancelotti looks good but as not done more than Scolari at this stage - so a bit soon to swoon

and there are many examples of Ramos, Scolari etc

I would not be so negative as to make it as simple as "...better the devil you know..."

But I would caution strongly against losing time whilst we swap and change to see how things work out

Soc - you make a great point - the clock is ticking and it is now too late for most clubs - thanks to the Sheik we have just managed to get on board in time.... lets not fuck it up (that would be typical CITY)

Todays game is an example of how we have to earn the right to be in the top four and that mentality has to be borne by all the management staff and players. Burnley out fought us, out thought us and deserved what they got and possibly more. I think even some of our players have prescribed to this 'pot noodle' approach and Burnley proved there is more to winning games in the premiership than just money and talent.