Kneeling

[PrezIke]

Anyway, this is all pretty deep stuff: perhaps all of us should stick to discussing football, particularly the one thing we all have in common - City.

That’s the problem - we’re not allowed to use football as a way of escaping “real life” anymore. It’s all about politics.

Sports has always been about politics in some way mate.

I can say wanting sports to NOT be about politics to more than a few IS a political statement in itself.

Is it truly accurate to suggest there has never been any socio-economic/societal issues that naturally or not so naturally exhibit themselves in sport?

Can one say that if one is truly honest and informed? I'd like to hear the arguement.

[Harry Dowd scored]

Who’s Jacob Reece Mogg??

Rees
My bad .

He looks like a right smarmy gimp.

Smarmy extremely powerful rich lying Nazi gimp yes indeed.

Leave Jeremy Corbyn out of this please

[Mase]

Anyway, this is all pretty deep stuff: perhaps all of us should stick to discussing football, particularly the one thing we all have in common - City.

That’s the problem - we’re not allowed to use football as a way of escaping “real life” anymore. It’s all about politics.

Sports has always been about politics in some way mate.

I can say wanting sports to NOT be about politics to more than a few IS a political statement in itself.

Is it truly accurate to suggest there has never been any socio-economic/societal issues that naturally or not so naturally exhibit themselves in sport?

Can one say that if one is truly honest and informed? I'd like to hear the arguement.

Absolutely yeah. When I used to go to Maine Road as a kid it was about watching shit football, enjoying it, and buzzing that I was getting the new City kit for Christmas.
Absolutely no politics, but if you can point out something that’s on par with players taking a knee now, I’m all ears.

[PrezIke]

I've mostly kept my mouth shut because it will feel as so-called fruitless as some feel about the act of kneeling before games that is now overtly about being AGAINST RACISM not anything else.

I can state for a certified fact that I know so-called lefty individuals who very much dislike the act of taking a knee as it has gone on as an empty symbolic act being against racism when overt and not so overt forms of racism run rampant within the sport, fans and at games.

However, to hide behind booing as part pf Freedom of poltical speech" is tantamout to the way white supremacists and people like the former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad used to hide behind tropes seeded in "classic liberal" intellectual ideas like "You have to question everything" and it's "just an opinion" to deny the European Jewish Holocaust or claim superiority over other marginalized groups.

Why kneeling requires any sense of booing is beyond sad and disappointing to say the least.

To interpret it as an attack on white people is also interesting. One question may be fair to ask have any white people in any recent time possibly done anything towards people of colour (as we say here) compared to the other way around in terms of power and impact? Why is self-awareness seen as weak? This is an apparent obsession with the right wing in my observation. I have my thoughts, but let's forget about that for a moment. Kneeling is NOT focused primarily on abolishing white people, whatever that means.

If you measure it based on average in terms of wealth and stability, whilst "working class" whites have absoutely lost their hold with a demise of manufacturing and post-late industrial capitalism, whites are still doing overall better and don't experience violent acts directed towards them by in large from people of color. Yet the opposite has been increasing and we know of recent periods, say even in the UK with the National Front of their own actions.

I probably will lose a lot of credibility with some here, but I don't hate you and am glad to listen.

I just think the vitriol, while I get it on some level is misplaced and in my view disrespectful to the goal of creating a place where we reconcile with the past and find a way to do better.

[Blue Jam]

I've mostly kept my mouth shut because it will feel as so-called fruitless as some feel about the act of kneeling before games that is now overtly about being AGAINST RACISM not anything else.

I can state for a certified fact that I know so-called lefty individuals who very much dislike the act of taking a knee as it has gone on as an empty symbolic act being against racism when overt and not so overt forms of racism run rampant within the sport, fans and at games.

However, to hide behind booing as part pf Freedom of poltical speech" is tantamout to the way white supremacists and people like the former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad used to hide behind tropes seeded in "classic liberal" intellectual ideas like "You have to question everything" and it's "just an opinion" to deny the European Jewish Holocaust or claim superiority over other marginalized groups.

Why kneeling requires any sense of booing is beyond sad and disappointing to say the least.

To interpret it as an attack on white people is also interesting. One question may be fair to ask have any white people in any recent time possibly done anything towards people of colour (as we say here) compared to the other way around in terms of power and impact? Why is self-awareness seen as weak? This is an apparent obsession with the right wing in my observation. I have my thoughts, but let's forget about that for a moment. Kneeling is NOT focused primarily on abolishing white people, whatever that means.

If you measure it based on average in terms of wealth and stability, whilst "working class" whites have absoutely lost their hold with a demise of manufacturing and post-late industrial capitalism, whites are still doing overall better and don't experience violent acts directed towards them by in large from people of color. Yet the opposite has been increasing and we know of recent periods, say even in the UK with the National Front of their own actions.

I probably will lose a lot of credibility with some here, but I don't hate you and am glad to listen.

I just think the vitriol, while I get it on some level is misplaced and in my view disrespectful to the goal of creating a place where we reconcile with the past and find a way to do better.

Some great arguments in that post, enjoyed reading it.

I would say though, that most (if not all) on the thread are not in favour of booing the kneeling, not defending the Millwall fans. But there are reasonable arguments against it continuing to happen at every single match.

Great Post though, made me think.

[PrezIke]

Anyway, this is all pretty deep stuff: perhaps all of us should stick to discussing football, particularly the one thing we all have in common - City.

That’s the problem - we’re not allowed to use football as a way of escaping “real life” anymore. It’s all about politics.

Sports has always been about politics in some way mate.

I can say wanting sports to NOT be about politics to more than a few IS a political statement in itself.

Is it truly accurate to suggest there has never been any socio-economic/societal issues that naturally or not so naturally exhibit themselves in sport?

Can one say that if one is truly honest and informed? I'd like to hear the arguement.

Absolutely yeah. When I used to go to Maine Road as a kid it was about watching shit football, enjoying it, and buzzing that I was getting the new City kit for Christmas.
Absolutely no politics, but if you can point out something that’s on par with players taking a knee now, I’m all ears.

I hear you. So, what I would say is understandably from your point of view, no doubt, it would seem that the experience you had was that of a lack of politics.

However, your experience I suspect is not shared by others who may come from a different background.

I obviously never went to Maine Road, but I've attended many professional sporting events here in NYC that I am sure more than a few in attendance would not see as "political" but I would certainly attest to seeing, hearing and experiencing things on and off the pitch that would mean something different to others and I would absolutely classify as political.

Btw, the wages the players make and the constant banter towards players and attitude in general about rich primadonna athletes (often the case when not white as our own player, Sterling, pointed out) is 100% a political point of view as I can absolutely not shared by all and that expression evokes a reaction from others when it's heard that tells us it is political.

Back to the attending the event experience...Have you ever been to someone's home or an event or party where you felt you were DRASTICALLY different than the others at the event or worried about others finding this out and what that might mean?

Most who attend football or I've observed at the many sport events I've attended since I was a child in the States: baseball, basketball, American football and ice hockey are white, straight males, and even within that category tend to lean a certain way in some aspects that represent the dominant expression of stereotypical identity of masculinity that tends to lean more towards teenage-like.

If you don't really fall in line with this I can tell you for a fact I have seen others exposed and ridiculed at games and called things like "faggot" "gay" "a**hole" There's literally an infamous song at NYC sporting events using that song I heard mostly at NY Yankee games in the bleachers (the poor people seats) often directed at the "box seats" because they were perceived as the rich part of the stadium.

You'll also hear plenty of calling people a "pu**y and none of these are not exactly meant to be compliment just like calling someone a c*nt isn't.

I've seen the few women at games if they were fit screamed at and chanted at to "show us your t*ts."

I could go on here but tell me that if that offends you, or you know maybe if you are actually gay, have a LGBTQ family member, or are just a woman you might feel that behaviour at sport events might be construed as a tad bit political?

Also, workers rights and unions for the players is a political issue. As is the fact that in football (like American football for ages and until recently the NBA) there are so few black or brown managers/coaches despite so many players. I heard a recent podcast about black coaches in the UK where a well regarded candidate said that some known black candidates outwardly discourage them from pursing the profession because they believe it is so tainted by racism.

I could go on and on, as I wrote mate.

We all have our own experiences and perspectives, so I acknowledge that for you it was not a political experience, but I think it is also fair to be able to simultaneously acknowledge that is not the same for others.

Hoppefully, then we can move forward to figure it out in a respectful manner whilst still being able to have fun. The fun doesn't have to disappear completely, but I don't know any teachers or adults who teach children that ridiculing their peers and then blaming the victim - which can be construed as a form of bullying (not saying you're a bully btw) - is something we should be looking at to model in our interactions with one another.

It's fine to disagree. That's normal. It's what we all do in that situation that matters.

Dismissing your feelings and experiences, I will also say, is also not helpful and not fair either.

Hope that helps explain a bit. Respect.

[Mase]

Fuck sake Ted, I’m absolutely not reading that post. My experience at Maine Road was shared by most people.

Did you have a different experience at Maine Road?
And what experiences when watching City live have you experienced that are as big as the kneeling?

And the condescending “respect” at the end of your post reminds me of Mourinho

[Harry Dowd scored]

I've mostly kept my mouth shut because it will feel as so-called fruitless as some feel about the act of kneeling before games that is now overtly about being AGAINST RACISM not anything else.

I can state for a certified fact that I know so-called lefty individuals who very much dislike the act of taking a knee as it has gone on as an empty symbolic act being against racism when overt and not so overt forms of racism run rampant within the sport, fans and at games.

However, to hide behind booing as part pf Freedom of poltical speech" is tantamout to the way white supremacists and people like the former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad used to hide behind tropes seeded in "classic liberal" intellectual ideas like "You have to question everything" and it's "just an opinion" to deny the European Jewish Holocaust or claim superiority over other marginalized groups.

Why kneeling requires any sense of booing is beyond sad and disappointing to say the least.

To interpret it as an attack on white people is also interesting. One question may be fair to ask have any white people in any recent time possibly done anything towards people of colour (as we say here) compared to the other way around in terms of power and impact? Why is self-awareness seen as weak? This is an apparent obsession with the right wing in my observation. I have my thoughts, but let's forget about that for a moment. Kneeling is NOT focused primarily on abolishing white people, whatever that means.

If you measure it based on average in terms of wealth and stability, whilst "working class" whites have absoutely lost their hold with a demise of manufacturing and post-late industrial capitalism, whites are still doing overall better and don't experience violent acts directed towards them by in large from people of color. Yet the opposite has been increasing and we know of recent periods, say even in the UK with the National Front of their own actions.

I probably will lose a lot of credibility with some here, but I don't hate you and am glad to listen.

I just think the vitriol, while I get it on some level is misplaced and in my view disrespectful to the goal of creating a place where we reconcile with the past and find a way to do better.

Interesting post, just to put my point about white working class oppression being overlooked, it does not mean the oppression of black peoples should also be overlooked, this is not a race to the bottom.
The guy who replied to my post missed the point altogether, in some area it is viewed that the BLM issue is continually shoved down the throats of people who, to escape the drudgery of their daily lives turn to sport. The last thing they want to see is homage paid to a let say dubious organisation (BLM) they may agree with the cause of anti racism but not some virtue signalling by millionaires to make them feel good about themselves.

[Blue Jam]

We have to be careful how this is taught as I would not like a woke 'cancel culture' type teacher brain washing students otherwise we will have a nation of kids scared to say anything for fear of upsetting someone

There needs to be a common sense approach to teaching children that its wrong to do A B and C - how this is implemented is up to the education authority.

Well therein lies the problem. Most of us teachers are biased to the left. I'm a lefty and rather woke but I keep my opinions to myself in the classroom, even when 'teaching' my form group cancel culture, democracy etc via slides created by a 3rd party provider (which is biased towards left wing sources).

I've seen BLM delivered in assembly, wel intentioned but inaccurately delivered, biased. I've heard kids saying they are sick of having it rammed down their throats. As kids get older, they question authority, they quite rightly question the opinions that woke muddle class people throw at them.

And there are some absolute nutcases in education, including teacher trainers.

Its so difficult to get right

What would you suggest - if you were the ultimate authority ?

Not been ignoring this. The fact is I could write a book about it and there would still be flaws.

Some main points.

Must be as objective as possible. Critical race theory is highly contested and perceived to be biased.

Must be done by those with correct experience and training . A new maths teacher teaching this is less likely to work.

Philosophy needs to be part of the curriculum, I'm biased towards stoicism these days.

Not all views on this are appealing. This lady, I think, talks a lot of sense and has led a school that has done phenomenal things for BAME (excuse that term im not entirely comfortable with lumping loads of groups together in one word) pupils in deprived area. If you have time, watch this. https://youtu.be/HMFm6RGjhEk
I don't agree with everything she says, but she is brave and talks a lot of sense.

[Mase]

Prez hurry up. What political movement got as much attention as BLM and influenced football to change as much when we were at Maine Road and you used to go and watch City.

Couple of sentences will do mate, we don’t need 5 pages.

[PrezIke]

Fuck sake Ted, I’m absolutely not reading that post. My experience at Maine Road was shared by most people.

Did you have a different experience at Maine Road?
And what experiences when watching City live have you experienced that are as big as the kneeling?

And the condescending “respect” at the end of your post reminds me of Mourinho

Okay mate.

Here's an edited shortened quote of the part that addresses this part, but this question overall I do not believe is something that can be answered in a few words. It's not that simple. To simplify it too much will make it hard to understand.

Have you ever been to someone's home or an event or party where you felt you were DRASTICALLY different than the others at the event or worried about others finding this out and what that might mean?

Most who attend sport are white, straight males, and even within that category tend to lean a certain way in some aspects that represent the dominant expression of stereotypical identity of masculinity that tends to lean more towards teenage-like.

If you don't really fall in line with the dominant group at a sporting event you will be ridiculed at the games, called a "faggot" ,"gay" or an "a**hole".

There's literally an infamous song at NYC sporting events using that song I heard mostly at NY Yankee games in the bleachers (the poor people seats) often directed at the "box seats" because they were perceived as the rich part of the stadium.

You'll also hear plenty of calling people a "pu**y and none of these are not exactly meant to be compliment just like calling someone a c*nt isn't.

I've seen the few women at games if they were fit screamed at and chanted at to "show us your t*ts."

I could go on here but tell me that if that offends you, or you know maybe if you are actually gay, have a LGBTQ family member, or are just a woman you might feel that behaviour at sport events might be construed as a tad bit political?

Do you think these individuals feel comfortable and safe or less comfortable and safe than you and others like you at games?

[PrezIke]

Forget about me...

Ask David Mooney if he thinks attending games at Maine Road or The Etihad are political.

He's openly gay and a massive City supporter if not one of the most famous as just a fan.

I am about 100% certain he will say attending games IS political.

[Mase]

Think you’re missing the point. We’re talking about politics and football. Answer the question about when you used to go and watch City at Maine Road, because the condescending post with “yeah that was your experience but not everyone’s” when I gave my point of view from being a kid was absolute bollocks. So if you understand the point I’d love to know what you’ll come up with about when you used to watch City at Maine Road. Not the fuckin US women’s team or whatever you’ve mentioned in your last post. Or some third world country where you watched a match once and a guy shouted at a woman. Maine Road - which was MY example

[Mase]

Forget about me...

Ask David Mooney if he thinks attending games at Maine Road or The Etihad are political.

He's openly gay and a massive City supporter if not one of the most famous as just a fan.

I am about 100% certain he will say attending games IS political.

So you’re speaking on someone else’s behalf now?!

Never heard of someone pulling a Mooney. The most openly gay City fan is our mate Cute Mancs. Fact.

[PrezIke]

Think you’re missing the point. We’re talking about politics and football. Answer the question about when you used to go and watch City at Maine Road, because the condescending post with “yeah that was your experience but not everyone’s” when I gave my point of view from being a kid was absolute bollocks. So if you understand the point I’d love to know what you’ll come up with about when you used to watch City at Maine Road. Not the fuckin US women’s team or whatever you’ve mentioned in your last post. Or some third world country where you watched a match once and a guy shouted at a woman. Maine Road - which was MY example

If I came across condescending I did not mean to. My apologies there.

I've never been to Maine Road so I of course can't tell you what happened there based on experience.

I gave you multiple examples of events that go on at games in the stands that I have heard other City fans openly state takes place in a similar manner at City matches.

Not sure what the US women's team has to do with this. I've never been and don't follow. I listed clubs of other sports that the same patterns of behaviour display themselves across the U.S. and Europe.

It strikes me as somewhat odd to believe what happens at sporting events in England or Maine Road is no where remotely close to what happens elsewhere. The suggestion if that's what you are saying, no disrespect intended, comes across rather condescending towards me.

I would bet all the money I have that I could find fans who attended Maine Road who have a story about experiencing things at Maine Road that they felt were political.

David Mooney, I've heard say, along with other gay fans that they have felt uncomfortable at games.

Did fans ever yell out any offensive phrases to other players or other fans that had to do with their identity at the games? That never happened?

Why are we having so much trouble communicating on this part. Do these stories not count? Maybe we're mishearing or something.

[City64]

Think you’re missing the point. We’re talking about politics and football. Answer the question about when you used to go and watch City at Maine Road, because the condescending post with “yeah that was your experience but not everyone’s” when I gave my point of view from being a kid was absolute bollocks. So if you understand the point I’d love to know what you’ll come up with about when you used to watch City at Maine Road. Not the fuckin US women’s team or whatever you’ve mentioned in your last post. Or some third world country where you watched a match once and a guy shouted at a woman. Maine Road - which was MY example

I cannot believe someone from the USA is posting about Maine rd openly admitting never attending a game there and not realising the fact that Maine rd is in the heart of the West Indian Affro Caribbean community Moss Side of whom many supported and attended city games for decades , truly unique and fantastic fan base in the City of Manchester renowned for its cultural diversity non more so at every game at Maine rd and the Etihad. Does my nut in when people who comment about Manchester who haven’t got a clue how it’s fabric works .

Edit , Shakes head in disbelief.

[Mase]

So just to confirm - I gave my experience of growing up watching City in ENGLAND where THIS LEVEL OF POLITICS wasn’t prevalent. You said because you heard someone shout “get your tits out” at a football match NOT IN ENGLAND that means politics has always been part of football.

Then you brought up a gay City fan and decided to speak on his behalf, and that because they MAY HAVE heard homophobic slurs at a City match that has some relevance to THE LEVEL OF POLITICS in football NOW.

Ultimately though, WILL WEARING A RAINBOW BAND AND SHOELACES CHANGE THE FACT SOMEONE MIGHT CALL A PLAYER THATS PLAY ACTING A “queer”? Ultimately, WILL KNEELING/STANDING TO DO A BLACK POWER SALUTE BEFORE A MATCH STOP PEOPLE BEING RACIST? The answer is no, we saw that at the weekend with Millwall.

So both HAVENT CHANGED A THING and is just shitty virtue signalling done by the FA and Premier League.

[Mase]

Think you’re missing the point. We’re talking about politics and football. Answer the question about when you used to go and watch City at Maine Road, because the condescending post with “yeah that was your experience but not everyone’s” when I gave my point of view from being a kid was absolute bollocks. So if you understand the point I’d love to know what you’ll come up with about when you used to watch City at Maine Road. Not the fuckin US women’s team or whatever you’ve mentioned in your last post. Or some third world country where you watched a match once and a guy shouted at a woman. Maine Road - which was MY example

I cannot believe someone from the USA is posting about Maine rd openly admitting never attending a game there and not realising the fact that Maine rd is in the heart of the West Indian Affro Caribbean community Moss Side of whom many supported and attended city games for decades , truly unique and fantastic fan base in the City of Manchester renowned for its cultural diversity non more so at every game at Maine rd and the Etihad. Does my nut in when people who comment about Manchester who haven’t got a clue how it’s fabric works .

Edit , Shakes head in disbelief.

We used to do the pantos as part of Junior Blues, and my mum (for some reason) let me and my brother just go walk around Moss Side while she was chatting to parents. Gave us a few quid each and told us to go to the shop. That’s where I’d first made friends with kids of other races (my school in Bury was 99% white).

Even down to the kids that used to come over and ask “can I mind your car” - again that was the first time I’d even seen kids of another colour.

If anything, going to watch football at Maine Road made me interact with other races at an early age.

[rosbif cuisson 'bleu']

images.jpeg

[City64]

Think you’re missing the point. We’re talking about politics and football. Answer the question about when you used to go and watch City at Maine Road, because the condescending post with “yeah that was your experience but not everyone’s” when I gave my point of view from being a kid was absolute bollocks. So if you understand the point I’d love to know what you’ll come up with about when you used to watch City at Maine Road. Not the fuckin US women’s team or whatever you’ve mentioned in your last post. Or some third world country where you watched a match once and a guy shouted at a woman. Maine Road - which was MY example

I cannot believe someone from the USA is posting about Maine rd openly admitting never attending a game there and not realising the fact that Maine rd is in the heart of the West Indian Affro Caribbean community Moss Side of whom many supported and attended city games for decades , truly unique and fantastic fan base in the City of Manchester renowned for its cultural diversity non more so at every game at Maine rd and the Etihad. Does my nut in when people who comment about Manchester who haven’t got a clue how it’s fabric works .

Edit , Shakes head in disbelief.

We used to do the pantos as part of Junior Blues, and my mum (for some reason) let me and my brother just go walk around Moss Side while she was chatting to parents. Gave us a few quid each and told us to go to the shop. That’s where I’d first made friends with kids of other races (my school in Bury was 99% white).

Even down to the kids that used to come over and ask “can I mind your car” - again that was the first time I’d even seen kids of another colour.

If anything, going to watch football at Maine Road made me interact with other races at an early age.

Think you’re missing the point. We’re talking about politics and football. Answer the question about when you used to go and watch City at Maine Road, because the condescending post with “yeah that was your experience but not everyone’s” when I gave my point of view from being a kid was absolute bollocks. So if you understand the point I’d love to know what you’ll come up with about when you used to watch City at Maine Road. Not the fuckin US women’s team or whatever you’ve mentioned in your last post. Or some third world country where you watched a match once and a guy shouted at a woman. Maine Road - which was MY example

I cannot believe someone from the USA is posting about Maine rd openly admitting never attending a game there and not realising the fact that Maine rd is in the heart of the West Indian Affro Caribbean community Moss Side of whom many supported and attended city games for decades , truly unique and fantastic fan base in the City of Manchester renowned for its cultural diversity non more so at every game at Maine rd and the Etihad. Does my nut in when people who comment about Manchester who haven’t got a clue how it’s fabric works .

Edit , Shakes head in disbelief.

We used to do the pantos as part of Junior Blues, and my mum (for some reason) let me and my brother just go walk around Moss Side while she was chatting to parents. Gave us a few quid each and told us to go to the shop. That’s where I’d first made friends with kids of other races (my school in Bury was 99% white).

Even down to the kids that used to come over and ask “can I mind your car” - again that was the first time I’d even seen kids of another colour.

If anything, going to watch football at Maine Road made me interact with other races at an early age.

Absolutely Mase , it was cool wearing the blue and white in Moss Side and a socially rewarding experience. Also City have a large Jewish fan base some of them are our most die hard fans for many decades .